United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
(OP)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9282215/U...
Flight was able to land in Denver. No injuries reported. It was a Boeing 777.
Flight was able to land in Denver. No injuries reported. It was a Boeing 777.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
I think those 777 engines are the largest out there, at least diameter-wise.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Prat and Witney. Actually looks like it did its job pretty well no damage to the aircraft. and the casing intact.
I presume the flames are from burning carbon fibre and the engine oil.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
The inlet, fan cowls, most of the thrust reversers all departed. Not good. This is not supposed to happen in a fan blade out event. Though its not clear what part of the engine failed.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
They have a colossal bypass so the core is only about the size of that black dome on the front of the fan.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
https://youtu.be/5-8_Gnbp2JA
They only do one test for certification if it passed.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
And here's a cutaway of the Pratt & Whitney PW4000 engine used on the B777-200:
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
To be honest I would call that a failure but colossal success nothing hit the aircraft.
Although I bet the crew are happy it happened just after departure and not in the middle of a 180 mins ETOPS segment.
I love watching the engine tests. The icing tests are not as spectacular as the fan blade failures but the abuse they can put up with and still produce power is amazing.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
https://avherald.com/h?article=4e35302b&opt=0
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
As long as a blade doesn't come out and bang through the hull pretty much every pilot would count it as a success.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
And if the compressor disk goes it comes out supersonic and goes straight through the hull. Kevlar or not. I think you actually mean the compressor disk not the Fan.
There was a 737-800 that happened to in 2018 I think.
There is no requirement to contain disk failures.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
If we look at the picture above the fan is the big bit on the front. with the orange next to it. Most of the air goes past the core and down the sides of the engine. There are vanes and stuff to keep its flow laminar.
The certification is if a fan blade comes off it stay's inside the engine body.
Behind that you can see a route that starts blue and then heads towards the back turning red. That's what we call the core there are usually 4-5 compressor "disks" and then it goes into the combustion area and then into the turbine at the back 5-6 of them rotational speeds go up to 13000 rpm. The disk just in front of the combustion chamber is the fastest spinning. And that's where you may have a blanked off window if the wing doesn't shield the cabin from that area.
People think its normal to do this, but actually its a fudge when they stretch an old model and re-engine it with larger bypass engines that won't fit under the wings. If you look at modern fresh sheet designs they all have the engines placed so the wing acts as a shield.
Put it this way the 737-100 doesn't have it and the MAX does :D
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Like it or not that cutting loose at 13000 rpm is not going to get stopped by 8 layers of Kevlar weave mat. Or if it is then it will cave in all the structure around the mat and you would have less damage if you just let it puncture its way through.
And here is another disk failure where the whole of the fan came off. That's the A380 over Greenland.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
And earlier in the day in Holland ...
https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/638787-unconta...
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
"The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has issued an emergency order calling for inspections of Boeing 777s fitted with Pratt and Whitney engines just 24 hours after a mid-flight incident in Denver. In a statement released Sunday evening, FAA Administrator Steve Dickson said: 'After consulting with my team of aviation safety experts about yesterday's engine failure aboard a Boeing 777 airplane in Denver, I have directed them to issue an Emergency Airworthiness Directive that would require immediate or stepped-up inspections of Boeing 777 airplanes equipped with certain Pratt & Whitney PW4000 engines. This will likely mean that some airplanes will be removed from service.' Meanwhile, Japan announced on Sunday that 32 passenger jets that use the same family of engine as the Boeing 777 that caught fire during the United Airlines flight from Denver to Honolulu on Saturday, have been grounded. The planes affected by the order from the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism, are 13 aircraft operated by Japan Airlines. The other 19 planes are operated by All Nippon Airways. None of the planes are scheduled to fly on Monday. Both announcements occurred a day after the United Airlines plane suffered catastrophic engine failure shortly after take-off. The Boeing 777-200 aircraft, carrying 231 passengers and 10 crew on board, was heading to Honolulu on Saturday from Denver International Airport when debris struck the plane’s right engine, causing it to erupt into flames. The incident forced the pilot to make an emergency landing back in Denver just 20 minutes after take-off, at around 1.30pm local time. Remarkably, there were no injuries reported either on board the flight or on the ground. "
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
maybe some sort of fatigue failure?
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/21/us/boeing-777-a...
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
It's basically covered in this Wiki item:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_chord
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
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The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
A220 doesn't have it.
Although there is some newish rule about control run protection near the engine line.
The turbo props is for ice shedding not for in the event the prop blade come off. I have seen a lump of ice get through it as well to make a hole in the hull. So I suspect it wouldn't have a chance against bits of metal coming out the casing that recently were doing 13000 rpm.
Nice to see the FAA actually did something quickly though...
Those engines are now banned from Japanese airspace.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
"The crack that led the fan blade to break on the United flight on Saturday was similar to one that occurred on a 2018 United flight, a person familiar with the preliminary investigation results who was not authorised to discuss them told the Bloomberg news agency.
In the latest failure, one fan blade cracked and broke off near where it attached to a rotating hub, according to the person. A second blade was also broken, apparently after it was struck by the first blade.
The fan blades on this specific type of PW4000 are hollow and made of titanium. The cracks appear to start from within the surface, making them impossible to detect on the surface. Airlines can use technologies such as ultrasound to find cracks beneath the surface.
Japan’s transport ministry ordered Japan Airlines Co Ltd (JAL) and ANA Holdings Inc to suspend the use of 777s with PW4000 engines while it considered whether to take additional measures."
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Hollow fan blades eh?
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/feb/22/b...
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Its called speed tape and is metal and costs about 50$ a roll. The technicians even have to go on special courses to be able to use it. It will stay stuck on even at 400 knts. They have a variety of tools to apply it.
There are even limits to the amount of it that can be used in certain areas. Some airlines survive on the stuff. Its one of the things I look for when I board a plane as a pax. The amount of it they have used and where it is. The more of it you see the more dodgy the maint level is. My current company the boss has banned it apart from get home outstation fixes.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
http://aerossurance.com/safety-management/ndi-fail...
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
I think they are fairly unique to that engine, or at least I hope so.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
It's still relevant to consider that this event could have been catastrophic but wasn't. Also, it's extremely rare for these parts to fail. I know there are reported incidents, but taken the number in service and the MTBF, the reliability rate is extremely high. Even considering that, it may still be excessive due to criticality and resultant nature of the events that could ensue.
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
So that's what aeronautical guys call duct tape... someone on the ground, that had one of the large covers land in his yard... should have applied some duct tape and taken pictures... just for humour.
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
P&W cutting corners, too? There has to be a 'pile' of NDT methods that I haven't heard of...
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
and part penetrated the fusilage just below the window line... could have penetrated someone sitting at the 'window' (I understand that some windows are missing, for this reason).
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
"All Boeing 777s with the same engine as the passenger plane which caught fire after take-off scattering engine debris over a US city will be temporarily banned from entering UK airspace, it was revealed today.
Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has acted after Boeing recommended that airlines ground all 777s with the type of engine that blew apart after take-off from Denver International Airport on Saturday. "
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
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The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Excerpt from the webpage-- Since entering revenue service in 1987, Pratt & Whitney has delivered more than 2,500 PW4000-94'' engines that have collectively logged more than 120 million dependable flight hours on commercial aircraft around the world.
I guess I would consider that a pretty good testimony, but of course, I wasn't on one of those few planes that experienced a rare failure.
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Link
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
https://www.tapemonster.com/products/aircraft_spee...
John that's what's called a dupe certain things have to be looked at and sign for by two people.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
My wife asked, so who would you turn your damages to, and I answered my insurance company, and let them sort it out. I would not want to waste my time trying to find out what airline, what engine manufacture, who maintained it, and so forth.
And amazing the plane can fly, and land without one engine.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Actually makes complete sense if primary load is radial tension from self weight, and moreso the hot side blades have passages for cooling air.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
It means they have guaranteed performance after an engine failure. So they can climb and get back to a runway "one donk down" as we say in Scotland. in fact the 777 is whats called ETOPs certified which means it can go more than 60 mins away for a suitable runway on one engine. I think its 270 mins certified... In the trade ETOPS stands for Extended Twin OPerationS. But we say it stands for Engine Turning Or Passengers Swimming.
They can actually fail an engine before takeoff and still takeoff and land again. After a speed called V1 we are going like it or not.
When we talk about speeds the whole reason why jets work so well is that props have a limit due to the tips of the props going transonic and the resultant vibration. They put a cowl round them and they can run them faster and make the fans bigger.
Pretty much everything that comes out a turbine is super sonic in normal temperatures if it fails.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
possible that would be a resonance nodal
while the news reports concerning the "fire", seeing that engine unblance shake was what would scare the hell out of me
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/dutch-probe-sh...
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
BA 747 had a daily from Phoenix to London and this was it leaving one night. Lost an engine on takeoff and had dump some fuel & return.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
http://www.wanderlodgegurus.com/database/Theory/su...
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
low cycle fatigue (LCF) fracture
time since new (TSN)
cycles since new (CSN)
Overhaul & Repair (O&R)
fluorescent penetrant inspection (FPI)
thermal acoustic imaging (TAI)
Principal Maintenance Inspector (PMI)
Fan Blade Off (FBO)
Maintenance Observation Program (MOP)
Flight Safety Foundation (FSF)
Maintenance Observation Program (MOP)
and, there's likely a couple that I missed...
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
How many hours with these types of hollow titanium blades?
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
A bunch... and when you think of a turbine at high RPMs, a bunch more...(This was the article I had to look up the abbreviations for)
According to United Airlines’ maintenance records, the No. 2 engine had accumulated 77,593 hours time since new (TSN) and 13,921 cycles since new (CSN) and 8,579 hours and 1,464 cycles since the last overhaul. The engine was installed on the airplane on October 18, 2015 [and] had operated 8,579 hours and 1,464 cycles since it had been installed. The entire fan blade set, including fan blade No. 11 had last been overhauled by P&W’s Overhaul & Repair (O&R) facility in July 2015. As part of the overhaul process, the blades underwent a fluorescent penetrant inspection (FPI) and a thermal acoustic imaging (TAI) inspection. P&W developed the TAI inspection process in about 2005 to be able to inspect the interior surfaces of the hollow core PW4000 fan blade. The records for the TAI inspection in July 2015 as well as an earlier TAI accomplished in March 2010 revealed a thermal indication in the same location as where the LCF crack occurred. The records for the fractured fan blade’s July 2015 TAI inspection was annotated ‘paint’ that, according to the inspector, was consistent with him accepting the indication because he thought it was an issue with the paint.
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
In the US though there was up roar 10 years ago or so when BA had to shut one down after departure and continued across the Atlantic. it had to land in Manchester instead of Heathrow because of the increased fuel burn.
There was calls for the Pilot in command to be jailed.
The USA works with a dispatcher system where some licensed person on the ground can tell the crew what to do. In UK and Europe we have a flight dispatch system where they prepare all the paper work etc and then give it to the pilots and monitor things for any changes and try to keep things smooth. But all decisions are made by the pilots they just provide information. There was a bit of an issue with the US flight dispatcher telling them to land and it being ignored.
So the crew checked the manuals spoke to ops and continued.
It was just when the EU compensation had kicked in so continuing saved them quarter of a million.
Eventually after months they decided that they hadn't actually broken any rules. But afterwards the FAA changed the rules so in the USA airspace you have to land in the event of power loss. Before that as long as you didn't loose more than 50% performance you could continue. But then it screwed quite a few company's up and they wanted to change it back... But I don't know if they did or not. What they really wanted was one set of rules for N reg and one set for everyone else.
I believe you can't do it with a A340 or A380 because you loose to many system backups and once you run the checklists for those it tells you to land at nearest suitable airport.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
I have 2500 rpm max for the fan and 13k rpm for the hp stage in my head for aircraft turbines but it will vary with engine type.
I also have 430 m/s fan tip speed going through my head...
The new geared PW1000G its 300 m/s and they are composite fan blades.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
I dont think I would need a checklist, or a dispatcher. Da. Something's bigly wrong there.
When one engine blows, do you really believe that you still have theoretical reliability and confidence level in the other. I'd at least divide by 2, 'cause IMO you are more than half way towards seeing a black swan appear.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Triple engine aircraft also have a different set of rules.
With twin engines you actually loose over 60 % of your performance when single engine.
Currently the 777 can be 330 minutes away from a suitable runway under ETOPS rules. The A350 is 370 mins.
Although I suspect the ETOPs approval will be reduced now for the PW engine aircraft back down to the standard 180 mins.
Single engine isn't that bad to be honest everything goes into back up mode. And everything stays working.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
If I was just over the Alps heading north and everything was working and no structural damage after the engine was secure the conversation on the flight deck would quiet quickly move onto the pro and cons of currywurst over bratwurst in Munich Airport where we would be landing.
A mate of mine lost an engine over head Glasgow and landed in Birmingham. When asked by the AIBB why did you land there and fly past Liverpool and Manchester etc.
Answer
That's where my car was parked,
Nothing mentioned in the report on the subject.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
I posted this link previously https://youtu.be/5-8_Gnbp2JA
Here is some more for interest
https://youtu.be/wcALjMJbAvU
And the new GE engine doing icing tests. This one got killed later doing the fan blade failure. Its very rare they actually release the video of the fan blade tests. I am told that because its usually quiet explosive with cowls etc going everywhere and compressor/turbine disks banging out the side. But as long as the fan blade stays inside it passes.
https://youtu.be/YuW6hhKype4
This one on an A330 it also spat disks and did quiet a bit of damage to the wing. The runway at Manchester is long so they won't have been at max N1.
https://youtu.be/PS1YAX70edc
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/united-boeing-7...
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Link
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
I believe that its only the fan that needs to stay inside the carcass. And cowls and compressor disks it is normal that they exit as they so wish. And in my experience it is normal for damage to occur to the wing and hull near the engine. The control lines etc are meant to be split and routed so there isn't a single point of failure. To note this doesn't apply to the 737 series because of grandfather certification rules means its design to 1960 standards.
These rules came in after the Sioux City crash of United 232.
Here is the accident report from it.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/12/12/nts...
That accident features a lot in our training and also caused major changes in the certification standards.
That section is what's called aero fairing and isn't pressurised. Its likely to be cowling that's been blown off or the cowl icing system that came off with the big ring bit. If it had been a disk part from the compressor sections there would be a hole coming out the other side.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
And the damage to the underside of the aircraft was to the wing-to-body fairings, not to the fuselage pressure shell.
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Safe flight and clear sky's for your trip
RE: United Flight from Denver to Hawaii blows engine on takeoff
Japan has just banned PW4000-94 engine aircraft as well. Which for those of you that use air freight is going to cause you problems as they are used on 747's and MD11's I think.
I think that's linked to the 747 engine failure in the Netherlands.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle/travel/boeing-...