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Help related fight data recorder

Help related fight data recorder

Help related fight data recorder

(OP)
I have a few questions related to the Flight Data recorder . As I see here is all about helping each other . I would like to get your advice.

As I have been working on a project related to the flight data recorder, I would like to know if you could help me get some detailed information about

this, for example, how the FDR works (not general information which is on Wikipedia and all , I want detailed information, for example, how

it processes the data), how and what types of blocks are used. For example, several printed circuit boards are used, how and why they are

used, what interface is used, how is the circuitry designed , what type of electronic elements are used and how they work , design of the

FDR , how the integrated circuit is built , the design of the FDR , etc. etc. I think you'll get an idea of what type of information I need, because I want to do my specialist in the department and study of the FDR, so I need to know, and I thought that an engineer or technical expert or anyone who can help me and share knowledge will be really helpful.

RE: Help related fight data recorder

Each manufacturer has their own proprietary construction and data storage format. If you need more detailed information you will need to contact the maker of the ones you are interested in or buy one and reverse engineer it. There are standards for the external data bus and physical interface to supply data, but which channel is associated with each data source is likely to depend on the aircraft maker.

This appears to be the latest interface standard: https://www.aviation-ia.com/products/717-15-flight...

RE: Help related fight data recorder

I already answered your question in the other forum, but you should delete your starting post in the other thread, nevertheless. There is no processing in the FDR, it is strictly a data recorder. The format isn't strictly "proprietary" in the commercial sense, i.e., a trade secret; it's simply in the format that the company used to record the data, and therefore, has no standards to which they comply. Since data integrity is paramount, the circuit design must be minimalistic.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Help related fight data recorder

IRStuff - you are right. Most of it is commonly available and not proprietary.

RE: Help related fight data recorder

LOL

RE: Help related fight data recorder

'8055...

Be sure You have access to...

AC20-141 AIRWORTHINESS AND OPERATIONAL APPROVAL OF DIGITAL FLIGHT DATA RECORDER SYSTEMS

FAA TSO-C124 FLIGHT DATA RECORDER SYSTEMS

ARINC 747 FLIGHT DATA RECORDER (FDR)

[NTSB] FDR [FLIGHT DATA RECORDER] HANDBOOK

MIL-HDBK-2124 FLIGHT DATA RECORDER FUNCTIONAL STANDARDS FOR

Regards, Wil Taylor
o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true. [Unknown]
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible. [variation,Stuart Chase]
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion", Homebuiltairplanes.com forum]

RE: Help related fight data recorder

One caveat with that thesis is the technology proposed was very limited in 1976, hence, the discussion about compression. While wire recorders had more capacity, that that time, their overall reliability was poorer. A 1 MB semiconductor solid state memory would have been absurdly expensive, so compression was a way around that. However, the paranoid that I am, I wouldn't like to have compression, error detection and correction is an absolute must, since any data loss could clobber the compression, resulting in inaccessible data.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Help related fight data recorder

(OP)
but I want help understanding the reverse engineering how it works , the detail engineering and Study and design of flight data recording , inside working

RE: Help related fight data recorder

but there's nothing to it ! A FDR doesn't do nothing but log data, its a Data Recorder. Now the encoding of that data to ensure data accuracy, data retrieval, and compact storage may be something "special" but also highly proprietary. Maybe googling "data logger" will help ?

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Help related fight data recorder

(OP)
If i want to learn about how the data is recorded , and how it is used in fdr , what should i actually learn and understand , which topic , so it will be easy to understand the mechanism. plus there are ample amount of PCB used inside , how to know how each pcb works and why each , special electronic components are mounted on it and how they help and work. imagine I am building a fdr from scratch , so what knowledge I would need to assembly , build it , from body to internal drives ,to mechanism. how to take the steps?

RE: Help related fight data recorder

It's a recorder, nothing more. The PCBs contain memory and the interface to the ARINC bus; anything beyond that, you should contact Boeing, or Airbus, or any other aircraft manufacturer.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Help related fight data recorder

Lord8055...

Quote (imagine I am building a fdr from scratch , so what knowledge I would need to assembly , build it , from body to internal drives ,to mechanism. how to take the steps?)


Hmmmmmmm… there are no short-cuts to this process... other than proprietary design manuals/data.

NOTE.
I, have assumed that we are discussing crashworthy FDRs... not FDRs intended for routine systems/components health/diagnostics monitoring and maintenance use. That is simply an avionics-rack black box for data storage and scheduled down-load to a mainframe computer.

Crashworthy FDR and CVR elements appear to be 'relatively straight forward' cousin of the 'FDRs for maintenance'... data-in, compact/storage, etc... EXCEPT that crash/post-crash survival and data-retrieval are the ass-kickers. The environmental criteria for crash/post-crash survival are mind-numbing: high speed impact... crushing ocean depths... long-duration fire... etc... are corner-of-the-envelop design mandates for [CVR/FDR] data survival/retrieval.

To design crash worthy FDRs You must understand all aspects that can be derived from printed sources. THEN: design, build, test... iterate... design build test... iterate... etc.

About now is where I insert a few quotes about experience...

Learning from experience is a faculty almost never practiced." --Barbara Tuchman, historian and writer

Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn." --C.S. Lewis

Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. And experience is often the most valuable thing you have to offer.” --Randy Pausch

Experience is never limited, and it is never complete.” --Henry James, writer

It is necessary for us to learn from others' mistakes. You will not live long enough to make them all yourself." -- Hyman Rickover, American admiral

Regards, Wil Taylor
o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true. [Unknown]
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible. [variation,Stuart Chase]
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion", Homebuiltairplanes.com forum]

RE: Help related fight data recorder

I don't get what you're trying to do, since you've seemingly done no research.

I suggest the following:
> https://www.curtisswrightds.com/infocenter/white-p... -- they have several white papers on FDRs
> https://www.google.com/search?q=flight+data+record...
> https://www.freepatentsonline.com/result.html?sort... -- obviously, researching prior art is the first step to a new design

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Help related fight data recorder

as Will says, making an FDR is quite a job. What are the operational/certification requirements ?

As a machine it is very simple, it records data and makes the data available for upload. It doesn't AFAIK manipulate the data.

I doubt anyone is going to tell you know to make an FDR. We here don't know the details (or if we do we're not responding). You may get some better response from a manufacturer of the FDR (I doubt the airplane manufacturers will/can tell you much … to them it's just a piece of equipment). I'd suggest getting your hands on a scrapped FDR and opening it !

Have you tried Google or YouTube ? (a google for "flight data recorder design" yielded some promising links)

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Help related fight data recorder

(OP)
any clue what i can study which can help me understand the mechanism and I have already googled and seen YouTube videos ,just explaining overall not detail, and manufactures never respond.

RE: Help related fight data recorder

"and manufactures never respond."

Well blow me down, companies don't give away their designs and intellectual property to an unknown person who just asks for it. Shock horror

You might therefore have just chosen the wrong subject to study....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Help related fight data recorder

I'd have thought any "mechanism" was solid state these days.

You may take a trip to the patent office, but I suspect these aren't patented (as that means showing everyone what you're doing).

I suspect the trick is making the data survive fire and water (and whatever else).

And, no, it looks like we can't (aren't) going to be able to help you further.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Help related fight data recorder

I must admit I always thought they were just (very) rugged version of a USB stick / solid state drive which just wrote over the data held longest once it filled up.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Help related fight data recorder

the older versions, with mechanical recording, had more mechanism in them

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Help related fight data recorder

Typical flash memory has a local controller that verifies the data is correctly written, keeps track of the number of times each area has been written, substitutes other areas when defects are found or redirects writes to less written areas (wear leveling). It is typically not possible from the outside of the flash controller to determine where the data is actually stored. On top of this will be the logical controller that pretends that the flash is contiguous and in sequence and takes the data requests and translates them to commands to the controller.

Not useful in an FDR, there have been fraudulent USB sticks that misreport actual data capacity. Some are smart enough to detect probes from anti-virus software and hide files that contain a virus.

In an FDR it would be useful for a logical controller to write data in parallel for data error detection to multiple flash controllers.

There are hobby FDRs for R/C airplanes and rocketry, but anyone asking for a beginner course is a year or more in learning programming and electronics debugging before building a useful one.

RE: Help related fight data recorder

I wonder if there's a TSO for FDR compliance ? (no, I can't be bothered to look it up, but if someone knew …)

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Help related fight data recorder

RB... SEE 5 Oct 20 17:07 [?]

Regards, Wil Taylor
o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true. [Unknown]
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible. [variation,Stuart Chase]
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion", Homebuiltairplanes.com forum]

RE: Help related fight data recorder

thx Will.

then it should tell you what you have to design to … loads, temps, times, etc.

of course, it won't tell How to design it ! But it is a typical certification standard.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Help related fight data recorder

WKTaylor, RB1957, IRStuff, 3DDave,
Are you all... I dunno... ...bored?
Why entertain this discussion when all of you know it's pointless and all of you know the OP is clueless?
Typing at 30 words per minute have you all collectively blown 1 hour on this thread?

www.sparweb.ca

RE: Help related fight data recorder

"30 words per minute" ??? … geeze, lucky to break 10 !

what's the matter steve, you don't like windmills ?

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Help related fight data recorder

Awesome wind weather these days, so I stand back and let 'em run.

www.sparweb.ca

RE: Help related fight data recorder

hey, is that a lead into discussing climate change ?

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Help related fight data recorder

SW...

New members with opening questions... like this one... can lead to interesting/unique discussions amongst ourselves... and light a fire under the newcomers who are truly interested/motivated to learn... or smoke-out the 1-timers who are amateurs/frauds/phishers.

I discovered... painfully... a long time ago that amateurs/frauds/phishers expose themselves by the content of their discussions... and/or 'topic-ignorance'... IE: obvious inexperience not interested in true-learning... and/or presenting a narrow/channeled focus that RARELY/NEVER crosses similar-to boundaries... and/or verbiage that may/may-not have a 'ring-tone' of authenticity... and/or may/may-not suggest/imply something illegal.

In the case of lord8055, my antenna are 'up' and I [we?] have suspicions RE background/motivation... although [lord8055 if listening] I sometimes have to be reminded by my wife to 'have patience and tolerance' for youth and inexperience.

BUT... again... this is an interesting and mostly unexplored topic-area... and I've actually 'learned something new' from some of the replies!

Regards, Wil Taylor
o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true. [Unknown]
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible. [variation,Stuart Chase]
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion", Homebuiltairplanes.com forum]

RE: Help related fight data recorder

(OP)
I really appreciate you people helping me and explaining me , some information really helpful , but some people really not helping and just saying negative stuff and demoralizing . i really want to learn, and understand . i want to do specialization and understand the whole FDR. if anyone of you can send some old FDR mechanism/ working in detail pdf. so i can read and understand . it would be really helpful.

RE: Help related fight data recorder

I've pointed you to a huge resource, which you continue to ignore. Over, and over, there are no "mechanism." And any further detail will require you to get it directly from the manufacturer.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Help related fight data recorder

(OP)
I am studying on flight data recorder, but as you know it's just basic, and soon I will finish my master’s degree and enter professional working field. But you know I want to work as a Flight Data recorder Engineer, but I exactly don’t know how to process ahead, like which aspects and where its possible to work as a flight data recorder engineer. Plus, as you folks have so much experience and knowledge on this topic, can you tell me what extra
knowledge needs to be acquired and so I can also study and develop my knowledge on those extra fields which can help me in my professional
work life.

RE: Help related fight data recorder

what is a "flight data engineer" ? ... a flight test engineer ? or an air accident investigator ?

you mentioned earlier that you wanted toe design/build an FDR. Why not buy a scrapped one and take it apart ?

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Help related fight data recorder

(OP)
I mean a flight data recorder engineer . A flight data recorder is not just one piece . It’s made up of several parts and several engineers are working on it . I want to know about what type of engineers are working and making the flight data recorder and if I want to work in the field of flight data recorder . Where can I work and as what type of engineer . If I want to develop or design

RE: Help related fight data recorder

I wouldn't've thought of that specific device as a career path, but ok. Which companies make them ? (hint ... L3, Honeywell, here's a link ..
https://www.aeroexpo.online/aeronautic-manufacture...

Talk to these guys.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Help related fight data recorder

(OP)
what to ask them , they hardly or almost never reply

RE: Help related fight data recorder

do they have any jobs ?

out of interest, what attracts you to this specific piece of equipment ? I doubt that there are people who only design FDRs.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Help related fight data recorder

(OP)
this equipment is the most imp. part of the plane, in case of accident or any issue FDR is the first part they search for , and it makes me excited and i look discovering and exploring and working on it . so that's why I wanted to know if there are people who really focus and build the FDR , so I can ask them and they can guide me and help me understand what extra education i need

RE: Help related fight data recorder

Bear in mind that there are probably no more than about 50,000 planes that carry FDRs, and roughly 600 new planes sold annually. Only minimal changes would be made in any short time frame; I would not see this as a booming employment environment.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Help related fight data recorder

thx, I know what an FDR is. Remember too the CVR which is often as important as the FDR in deconstructing an accident.

Yes, I know there are specific design conditions to be met, I still doubt that there's a guy whose (only) job is to design FDRs. I suspect that it is considered "just" another piece of equipment, to be updated as time goes by.

Note too, there is a move to replace the FDR with ground stored data, systems I've seen called Inflight Safety Management Systems which send the FDR data over satellite comms to the home maintenance base, so the data is not lost. But so far I haven't heard of CVR data being stored "off-ship" ... union issues or pilot privacy issues I suspect.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Help related fight data recorder

(OP)
what are the job aspects . if i want to work in field of FDR ?

RE: Help related fight data recorder

If the companies that make them don't have job openings then it's probably poor job prospects. I think most of them make other avionic components - Flight Director/Flight Computers/Autopilot/Instrument panel systems. I expect before getting onto an FDR team you would have had a decade or more with systems that are not expected to survive a crash.

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