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Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard
6

Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
Hi everyone,

My first post here. I am a young engineer and just got my first job out of college as a design/reverse engineer for a aerospace company. Currently I am doing my own automotive projects on the side and having trouble identifying this spline. Long story short, I am retrofitting tapered roller bearings into a hub and spindle for a old Isuzu. I have virtually everything complete besides matching this spline standard. I've been beating my head on this part for a bit now, and would appreciate any insight. Also I can't find a copy of any JIS spline standards that don't cost upwards of +$350!

Pics attached too.

I am pretty sure it is JIS-D-2001 or JIS 1603 B. Although it is probably a JIS-D-2001 because its a cv shaft, meaning major diameter fit. I could be wrong about it being a JIS standard because my research points out that GM had a lot to do with building this car.

Spec/Dimensions I've found below via optical comparator:

Internal Spline
24 Teeth
Small ID (tip to tip): 0.975"
Big ID (root to root): 1.06"
Tip width : 0.027"
Root Width : 0.017"
Angle of tooth (paint drawing attached for clarification): 40-50 degrees




RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

I think you may need to take some measurements between pins. Using several size pins could also help determine if it is an involute or not. Although if it's GM there's a decent chance it's not a standard spline. I would recommend reading up on involute splines so you know what you're looking for with major/minor diameters, circular space width, and pressure angle etc.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
Thanks lfw618. I am familiar with the 3 gauge pin method, but only for something external, I only have the internal spline here. I could track down the CV shaft and do it on that.

Why since GM it won't match a standard spline? Do they have their own spline standards or something?

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

Measurement between or over pins is just two pins. Again I think you would benefit from reading up more on involute spline terminology. There is a lot of information readily available on the internet without needing to buy a standard.

Automotive is one of those industries where non-standard splines are often justified. GM often uses non-standard splines in their drivetrain parts in my experience.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

Yeppers that's a spline all right ,
3 wire check wont work , only two wires since truncated
obtain dentist two part mold, and cast a mold or if you can
measure circular pitch, and with the mold measure the base pitch.
look at charts for combination to get a Module or DP. that has the same CP & Base Pitch..
it looks like a 45 deg spline.

do you have access to a CNC gear checker?

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
Thanks mfgenggear! I am working on getting the mating CV/axle shaft which should be in my hands soon (a nearly brand new one.. super lucky!).

No access to CNC gear checker unfortunately. I do have access to optical comparator, vision system, and x2 CMMs.

I will come back with my results soon.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
I have attached more pics of the spline too for reference.



RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

There used to be a guy around here, known by the name of gearcutter /Ron Volmershausen, Australia/, very knowledgeable when it came to the JIS spline standards, but he seems to be no longer with us.
There is only one involute that meets all the conditions you have mentioned, so I have calculated it.
Check out this template 10:1 https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=...
You may want to print it out (or some section(s) of it) in a scale matching that of your optical comparator and see if it fits, and let us know.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
Hi everyone,

Sorry for the delay. Also thanks spigor! I'll give that a shot next week.

I got the CV shaft in (male mating spline) and did some over pine measurements. I will pop it on the vision system tomorrow to confirm #'s but I thought I'd share the raw data (+/- 0.00005"). Again any insight is greatly appreciated. I will crunch numbers asap and post findings here:

1) Pin one dia= .1199" , Pin two dia= .1199" --> 1.2246" across/ 1.22495" across
2) Pin one dia= .1080" , Pin two dia= .1079" --> 1.1973" across/ 1.19735" across
3) Pin one dia= .09200 , Pin two dia= .09200" --> 1.1605" across/ 1.1601" across
4) Pin one dia= .07190" , Pin two dia= .07195" --> 1.11320" across / same
5) Pin one dia= .06290" , Pin two dia= .06295" --> 1.09135" across/ same
6) Pin one dia= .05485", Pin two dia= .05485 --> 1.0726" across / 1.07300" across
7) Pin one dia= .04480" , Pin two dia= .04485" --> 1.04770" across/ same

Pictures:
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)


Thanks again everyone.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

Ok I take it back, that's probably a standard spline. Those measurements seem consistent with a 24DP 45 degree PA. Have you been able to calculate circular tooth thickness from those measurements? I'd look at getting ANSI B92.1 to confirm. With calculated tooth thickness and the standard you can guess the tolerance class (maybe class 6?).

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
Sorry all,

Got the flu and been sleeping feels like for 3-4 days straight. Anyways Thursday I remeasured the female spline on the vision system and comparator to match numbers; my initial measurements were off.

Diameter Root = 1.0627"
Diameter Tip = .9761"
Tip width = .0274" (across treated as straight line just for calculation sanity checks)
Root Width = .0168" (same; across treated as straight line)

Angles of teeth I obtained below in the figure:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as calculations go, I am going to go ahead and bite the bullet here, and look stupid on the internet. The only calcs I am confident with are with module and pressure angle. I didn't to mention that I am up to speed with gear terminology because I was also working on a custom gear project for my Mazda prior, however little reverse engineering was involved, yet.

PA = 45 degrees (calculated via male shaft physical measurement and CAD model female spline measurement to confirm via method here: https://www.geartechnology.com/issues/0819x/spline...)

Circular pitch = 1.0194"... is it fair here to take the circle directly between Diameter Root = 1.0627" Diameter Tip = .9761" if PA is 45 degrees?

Module = .042475

As far as measurement over two pins; I am very lost here. I can't confidently follow the math in write ups online because most call of a known pitch, which I don't have. ANSI B92.1 is close to $100, and I am hesitant to buy another standard I'll maybe not need or use much (last time I spent $300+ on standards I barely needed for my gear project).

I am not asking to be spoon fed (unless you want to haha) but maybe a sample calc from the data I provided?

Also I was thinking since this spline most likely be EDM'ed, I can provide a drawing (similar to spigor provided above)and run a test cut on a 1/4" plate. Then I an test fit on the CV shaft and see if it has similar backlash and fit.

Sorry for the long post everyone. I am getting a little desperate as my business partner for this project seems to be loosing faith.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

Check the calculations/reverse calculations on this site:
http://zakgear.com/

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
Thank you! I've gone through this website as well. I was confused by this term: "Helix angle on pitch diameter". Can you shed some light on this?

I was looking at this calculator/calcs: http://www.zakgear.com/Over_Pins.html

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

For reverse calculation (tooth thickness from the size over pins) check this:
http://www.zakgear.com/Over_Pins_Reverse.html
Splines and spur gears have helical angle zero; for the helical gears it will be non-zero value. Because the helical angle changes by the diameter, both the angle and dia where it is measured is important for the calculations.
But this helix stuff was just my "spoon" of generic info for you. For the helix angle entry you need to enter there 0 (zero).
Another "spoon": The pressure angle of a spline/gear is defined at the PD too, because it too differs by the dia... Confused enough?
Please be aware that all of the discussion and calculations mentioned here are valid for involute splines.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
gearguru,

makes plenty of sense. I'll report back soon.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

can you measure the major dia of the male spline and let me know if it measures between 1.042 / 1037 also could you take a measurement across seven teeth and let me know how close it is to .7583 / .7574. Your initial measurements are pointing towards a ANSI B92-1-1970 (revised 1993) Table 57 Class 5.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
Yes my OD measurement is what you got there. thanks!

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

Google search a web site that will create a free dxf file of the internal spline geometry.
Open with a cad compatible. And blow it up
Print out on clear glassine (clear transparent plastic for printing)
Throw it up on the optical comparator.
Inspect the internal spline.
Use the same power as the template printed.
Verify if the pressure angle is close.
The printer driver must be set to scale.
See if the involute is close. It may also be SAE J spline. Automotive.
I have a page copied from my SAE handbook.
Tomorrow I will show it up here.
If the involute is close you now know the Diametral Pitch, and pressure angle.

The base pitch can be calculated to Diametral Pitch (DP).
If you have the correct #t, DP, & PA
You will get the correct involute.
You must have the above correct data
For Correct Measurement to Circular tooth space for internals, and tooth thickness
External. Splines are normally have an effective tooth thickness for externals
And standard tooth space for internal.
Is usaully (pi/DP)= circular pitch then divided by 2 = standard tooth thickness.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
mfgenggear that pdf you shared only has it for 36 or 48 teeth, or "serrations" as they call it. Am I missing something here?

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

nope sorry about that but the formula applies just the # of teeth, stick with the asme b92.1

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
Hi everyone,

So I think I'll go with a Mylar sheet drawing and pay for that service. However I can't seem to find a trustworthy/ legit website to convert my involute spline geometry to dxf file. I've started to model it in Solidworks but not sure it'll come out right. Would love to check my work.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

How are you modeling it? Do you have the points on the involute flanks calculated?
Years ago I created an OpenOffice spreadsheet for a friend to do just that. He then used the calculated coordinates to create a "script" (in DraftSight) to draw the curves and completed the tooth geometry (root, tip arc) "manually" and used it in wirecutting the gear.
I don't have access to any CAD anymore, but I think that Solidworks has some scripting or user's programming tool too.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

If you're using Solidworks, you can model the involute curve with a parametric equation driven curve. x=BR*(cos(t)+t(sin(t)) y=BR*(sin(t)-tcos(t)), then mirror that around a line to .5 of your circular space width to get your spline tooth.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

Do you want a dxf file with that spline from us? You suggested you had access to an optical comparator at work even though it is your personal project- why didn't you tell us if my sketch matches the actual part? Assuming it does, do you want a dxf file of:
a) an involute spline calculated from your second measurements, i.e. of my sketch,
b) an involute spline corrected to standard B92.1 with loose fit as indicated by your measurements, possibly resulting from wear, or
c) an involute spline as per B92.1 Class 5, tighter, but you can always run another WEDM cut if it's too tight?

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
spigor: If you could do a, b, and c that would be awesome! I'd owe you a steak dinner haha. I haven't sent your original file out for printing yet because I want all three. Also keep in mind I have limited access with work machines for personal projects; don't want to stretch these freedoms and get fired.

lfw618: cool thank you! I will give this a shot this weekend.

gearguru: I have two angles posted above, and root diameter and tip diameter. Isn't this enough to full define it? I know my #'s are accurate about .0045" differences max when comparing them to comparator and vision system. Again I took three measurements per machine and took average.

If I can model them like I described above, convert it to dxf on solidworks, and then and pop in spigor's dxf file, that would be another way to compare, yea?

Again thanks for all the help everyone! Learned so much through this process.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

I used the following data to model the tooth geometry:

module or diametral pitch
# of teeth
pressure angle at pitch dia
tooth thickness at pitch dia (which is measured as arc length)
major dia
minor dia

Then you will also need to model the root geometry so that it does not interfere with the internal spline.
(Be aware that those tooth thicknesses in posts above are measured/calculated as the arc lengths - portion of the pitch circle which runs between the two flanks!)

I trust spigor, he knows what he is doing.



RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

also if you believe the data is correct I can also create the DXF file
perfect for EDM

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

@gearguru
Thank you

Speedracerfast, Speedracerfast
Here is a dxf file with an involute spline profile calculated from your initial measurements, and it also contains a spline profile based on your second measurements corrected to standard B92.1 Class 5 (pink):
https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=...
The fillet should WEDM ok, but if not you need to decrease the major diameter and therefore to increase the fillet radius.
Here is also a pdf version for reference:
https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=...

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

Well, mfgenggear is a very reliable source and "old" and knowledgeable member of this site too.
Actually everybody in this thread brought interesting and valuable input.

@mfgenggear : Thanks for the interesting links. The geargenerator web is nicely done, but does not allow to enter the tooth thicknesses and does not create the internal gears. Therefore before the dxf file created there is used, has to be properly edited. If the involutes created there are properly calculated is a question too, we do not know the calculation methods used there. It is also interesting, that the inch based system (DP, not the metric, module) is used there - that site was obviously created in the Europe.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

I played with the geargenerator again. There is the option to create the internal gears as well. (in gear properties click on the box "internal". I was wrong in my previous entry.
Very clever program. Now I'll check if I can enter my own major and minor diameters...

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

Hi @gearguru
Yes the site needed vetting.
For accuracy.i can not take credit for
Online gear generator. It belongs to some one else.

I can create dxf files that are very accurate. I had parts were wire Cut gears and splines and we're verify with CNC gear checker to be with in .0004 involute tolerance.

Also let me reciprocate the thanks.
I have learned so much from other posters as well
I try to verify any calculations or programs with each other. Correct calculations should agree with the same results. I like using old dos programs that have worked well over the years plus I have written my own and vetted them as accurate.
By testing and verifing my results.

Just as my days working in the shop.
Measure 3 times, then cut.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

@mfgeggear: I sent an email to the owner of the geargenerator, I believe he is in Hungary. Obviously he is a very skilled programmer.
My calculations are mostly done in a spreadsheet, but in the past I also tried to create some simple programs in VB. They still work. Now I am retired and only occasionally look here. I like to help young people as long as they are anxious to learn how to solve, not just browse and look for ready solution of their problem. This is the case in this thread.
And I agree - if I can not verify/duplicate what some people calculated, I do not use their calculations.
This is a good thread, it demonstrates how are people able to help each other.
@Speedracerfast : You have two excellent sources for your dxf's; compare it and decide what to do next!

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
Wow thanks everyone for the help! Once again I appreciate the knowledge.

As for my last post, what I meant to say was "fully define" the spline the way I measured it described above, then use that model to measure other features that are spline specific. I know I need more info to put on the drawing, hence why I came here for help ;). Turns out it won't work well doing it this way anyways.

Now it's time to compile all these up, check calculations (as you all recommended). Because I'd like to know how to do this myself in the future; very useful skill to have.

If it doesn't break my NDA, I'll post some prototype 3D prints that come in soon. I also changed my bearings for the 100th time, and sourced a similar bearing (automotive specific.. same bearing used on many other cars today). Now I can copy pre-load specifications and have confidence for 70k-100k mile life.

Super close to done!

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

Learning the difference between involute spline and serration might be a good start.

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
Spigor,

When I pop in your dxf file into solidworks or eDrawings (to compare to mine), the dimensions are way off. I'm getting a diameter of around 24 inches. Am I missing something here?

RE: Help! New Engineer Need help identifying CV shaft spline standard

(OP)
Nevermind sorry. It was a solidworks problem I believe. I imported it via mm instead inches and it came back to scale. Matches well with mine too. Thanks lfw618 for that modeling tip and Spigor for dxf ;)

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