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Kids trapped in a cave
15

Kids trapped in a cave

Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
Not a result of engineering, but one that might benefit from it.

The kids soccer team is trapped in a cave. From the graphic on the news it seems there are several pools that have sealed off the exit path. The children are supposed to be unable to swim, though I don't know that that is a special limitation. More concerning is that using scuba equipment might be too complicated for them; not only are they not familiar with it, the water they will move through is so murky that they would essentially be blind, deaf, and unable to communicate so that even guides would be unable to help them escape.

There is no immediate problem for them; they are now supplied with food and water and medical care. They have been without food for a week and will take a while to recover from that.

However, there is no known time at which the water will recede from the cave. I expect that there is insufficient pumping capacity to offset the rate at which it can be replenished. On the news they estimated weeks to months before the cave might dry enough.

Since they are in the cave, the passage was certainly large enough to get in and so there should still be enough room to get out. In particular full-sized adults have made the journey.

A thought occurs to me that it should be possible to pull corrugated tubes through each of the pools and then pump those out. If the ends are above water, there should be no replenishment beyond minor leaks for the pumps to offset. Using these the children should be able to crawl out, and will have light and audible communications to guide them.

The water is apparently only 16 feet deep at most, so the pressure can't exceed 8 psi. Anchorage will be required to keep it from shortening axially, but that should be a few hundred pounds to be useful.

I would estimate that a 24 inch diameter would be enough. I'm thinking of construction as is used for ventilating manholes, possibly with stronger wire.

If the tube obstructs the path for the adults, then they can wait the few days while the tubes are placed, the children escape, and then the tubes can be retrieved. If they are anchored against the cave roof by buoyant forces, they can be flooded again and then pulled back out.


Does this seem like a feasible way out?

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Long tube... they are in about 4 km... and I guess part of the journey, they may need/have climbing equipment... some areas are tight and may not be accessible wearing SCUBA equipment. Still tricky.

Dik

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

A bad situation. The monsoon season usually lasts until October.

The good news is that there is a lot of help. The boys were found by two experienced British cave divers who have done this type thing before. In addition to the Thai seals, including the two doctors who are with the boys, I think the US, Chinese, and Australian military have been involved.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Not having studied the details, makes me wonder if they could drill down to them somewhere.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Accessing them from above has been talked about, including drilling or using a natural chimney, but that seems to have gone quiet. They are 800-1000 metres underground, and the terrain is rugged mountain rainforest.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
In the diagram from https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2... it looks like the longest stretch is 200m. It looks like the need to get 1500m to get to the main base before the final pool.

Even if the entire trip can't be made that way, limiting the amount of underwater diving would be hugely beneficial.

Balancing the difficulty of placing tubes is the knowledge that many experienced divers won't even go in cave pools and the death rate for cave divers is really high, but I think it's from getting lost. Presently the kids are safe, and maybe they can stay for 3-4 months and not risk any lives beyond dropping off food and water/filters. They say that there are a couple of places too narrow to wear the air tanks.

Aside from the obvious predicament, the kids and coach are hugely lucky. I'm pulling for it to stay that way.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

I would suggest supplied air through long tubing. With the tight clearances this may be safer than having the boys carry scuba gear. safer too than having to remove scuba gear to navigate a tight section.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Probably need to stage the rescue. 100ft then maybe up to a couple of hundred feet between haul-outs. Use hoses to mask regulators so one only has to follow the hose. Helmets to prevent head bashes.

I'm sure a lot of parents want to strangle the idiot coach.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

a lanyard, and a face mask fitted with a tube might do the trick.

Dik

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
I wondered about externally supplied air; the distance from the main staging area, itself cut off by floodwater, is nearly a mile from where the team is. Even at high pressure and low flow the losses for a hose of reasonable weight and flexibility seem like they could be too high. I never did enough with pneumatics to have flow calcs - anyone else do this?

There is another diagram that looks to be drawn by someone at the site that shows that the current total submersion is only required at four locations for a distance of 30 feet each. That's not too bad and maybe is why they are going for the face-masks right away (aside from the impending monsoon season.)

There aren't many pictures of the whole cave and it doesn't seem to have been previously mapped in detail. Those showing the entrance suggest that parts of it are large enough and the passages must have seemed easily passable until the water rushed in.

Here's my concern with getting the kids scuba ready - they tried to carry a phone in and the waterproof container failed, ruining the phone. That's one phone. The reports are they are experimenting with the masks but haven't tried submersion just yet. They say they want to bring them out as a group. That seems like a humane and bad plan.

They are also worried that the cave will go from partially flooded to fully flooded, though they seem to think that where the team is now will be OK but they may not be able to send supplies; that puts a rush as the monsoon season is to start in the next week.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

I keep thinking about the old style diving suits, might be safer than masks. Put a kid in one, with an air supply, tie them off to a diver, tow them out. Less concern about the kids' masks coming loose or getting dislodged.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

This has been discussed on other forums.

Cave diving is risky and has claimed many lives. When you throw the fact in that the kids do not know how to swim it gets complicated. One passage is very constricting and there is no room for tanks on a person, the divers had to take the tanks off and push them ahead. Then throw in panic. A big killer among experienced cave divers.

So the rescue is very complicated. And the location is remote. More rains in the forecast so there is danger of the water rising. And the water has current and is moving.




RE: Kids trapped in a cave

That's my thought dik. An escort with the child and some divers tending the hose.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Dave; Not a mile of hose, just enough hose to pass each submerged section. Taking them all out at once seems like a guaranteed disaster.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Here is a more stylized graphic showing the situation in the caves:



Perilous exit dive only way out for boys

Coming rain may force boys to swim for safety


https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general/1496898/p...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

thinking of the "personel tube" where miners are lifted out through drilled holes, maybe a "cacoon" to fully enclose,

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

There are full-face snorkeling masks now readily available, i.e., Costco, and definitely available from manufacturers in China. The full-face masks makes it so easy, even for noobs like me. If the snorkel tubes are connected to an air supply, it might work, but 400 meters is a LONG way underwater.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Interesting view of the cave system. Thanks to John Baker for posting it.

I have been in a couple of caves way back in the past, but they were totally dry. Still got lost! Thanks that we had an experienced guide.

This one with the water is just downright scary. And more rain and flooding on the way!!!

Hope they make it out.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

I have not heard this discussed, may not be even remotely possible, but can the water entering the system at Monk's Junction be diverted? That seems like the best way to reduce the water level to the point that they could just walk out. Of course, the water has to go somewhere and it's going to cause some down stream problems just like the water they are pumping out.

I did some caving back when I was in college and caves are not nice regular shapes what you are going to be able to slide in a long 24" diameter tube. There are usually abrupt turns, irregular shapes, sharp projections, narrow spots, etc. One of the caves we regularly went in was also partially filled with water. I was pretty paranoid the first couple of times about getting lost because there are very few recognizable landmarks in a cave and they tend to look completely different on the way out than on the way in. The one thing you could count on with the cave we used was that water always flows down hill so if you follow it up stream eventually you came out the entrance even if you took a completely different route. No diving was involved, that would increase the danger enormously.

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Quote (dgallup)

have not heard this discussed, may not be even remotely possible, but can the water entering the system at Monk's Junction be diverted?
I understand that the water is entering from a side passage at Monks junction.
I wonder if the incoming water may be blocked with an inflatable bladder tank. They come in all shapes and sizes.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

dgallup's suggestion is probably one of the most pertinent posts on this subject. The fact of the matter is unless there are some people with underground mining expertise involved in the rescue attempts , then it is unlikely that the best possibilities will be mentioned or evaluated. Having said that , put yourself in the shoes of whosoever is in charge........ probably a Thai military official. Theres supposedly over 1000 persons involved already. How is the leadership supposed to co ordinate all the actual activity, and at the same time evaluate all the well intentioned but possibly mis guided suggestions??

Sealing , or at least reducing the inflows, would probably be best achieved by drilling from surface and then using modified grouting techniques., However this requires survey knowledge of the target area for the drill hole......... probably not available today. Thats also the main problem with the idea of drilling a rescue shaft from surface........ where exactly is the target area. Thailand is not known for its mining expertise, so the leadership might not even know what the right questions are to ask. I suppose if the local topography allows for it , a drain hole could be drilled from below the cave entrance to maximise drainage rates, but I would think that if this was feasible , it would have already been evaluated locally.

The local geology is probably limestone of some sort , which is notorious for large random open caverns. The major problem is the lack of time before rains recommence. I certainly dont know how to proceed . Apparently pumping efforts todate have flooded a large area of farmland, so any and all activities are likely to suffer from the law of unintended consequences.. Not a good situation for anyone involved.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Two concerns:
One that there is air where they were found, how much, and where did it come from? If the air was from when it was dry, then the amount is limited.

Two that on one video I saw there were people carrying a yellow pipe, maybe 6 or 8 inch in diameter. Was that for pumping of water, or something else? (air maybe).

It maybe possible to keep the water out, or area dry by pressuring the chamber the boys are in. but maybe that won't work due to air leaks in the cave.

As far as a guide, following a rope in the merkey water is a workable method.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

My first thought when I heard about this was using the old-style diving bells, the helmets with air pumped in. There's no tanks, some head protection, no mask to leak or lose, no mouthpiece to get lost, and if you strap it on, the hose becomes an extra safety line. You'd still have them moving along a static line, likely harnessed to it, as well.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Too many of you are hung-up on the issue of kids having to handle scuba equipment. The only equipment the kid needs to carry is a full face respirator snugly strapped to his face. The tanks would be carried by another diver. The kid could even be sedated. I would be more concerned about the weather changing and causing more flooding while rescuers dawdle.

The main killer of scuba divers is panic.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

I agree Compositepro. Including sedation.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

...and they are wasting valuable time... They should be rescuing the kids.

Dik

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

They have to get the rescue equipment to the closest dry ground and set up camp to start hauling the guys out... while this is happening, they have to set up camp at the second closest dry ground to start hauling the guys out from the closest camp... while this is happening, they have to set up camp at the third closest... and, so on. they need a long rope (double the distance, from camp to camp, so it can be pulled back after the guy has reached the next camp. The guy can be attached to the rope with a face mask... it would work if the guy was even attached by his feet...

Dik

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
dgallup - the hose I was thinking of is spiral wound so it could slinky around and go with a local elliptical if required. The problem is the lengths need to be manageable and I see a variety of estimates, but no firm numbers on the length of the waterfilled segments. If they are 50 feet or less and less than a half-dozen then I think it would help, but if they are hundreds of feet long it's going to be more difficult to place than teaching scuba to a pack of children.

Edit : Link to a better map; missing vertical/water topology. https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36...

I think they are beyond section 28.

I found it on http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/live-updates... which has ongoing English language updates.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

The map is extremely detailed; I wonder how it was developed. Did they actually take survey equipment 'into the depths'?]]

Dik

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

This incident has claimed it's first victim and it does not bode well for the people still trapped in the cave:

Thai Rescue Diver Dead After Falling Unconscious In Cave

Samarn Poonan, a former member of Thailand’s elite Navy SEAL unit, died from lack of oxygen.


https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/thai-rescue-d...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Dik,
Yes, some cavers do take survey gear. The outdoor club at my uni had a reasonable amount, although they have lost the skills and equipment now.
John.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Quote:

The boys were malnourished and were suffering from muscular dystrophy
Wait, what? MD is a disease (well, okay, a group of diseases)... was this a special-needs group, or is the reporting just a failure?

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

probably atrophy, not dystrophy.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
English is not the primary language of the Thai. I suspect they looked for "muscle weakening." They've been stuck for two weeks without being able to move much and half of that without food.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Quote (AJ2)

Yes, some cavers do take survey gear.

thanks, didn't know that. I used to do some rockclimbing, and never thought to bring survey equipment... never done any caving.

Dik

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

They may use fairly short hoses, 20 or 30 feet. One diver with the child and a second diver ahead or behind with the air tanks.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Elon Musk has decided to get involved offering some ideas as well as resources and personnel:

Elon Musk is sending engineers to Thailand to help soccer team rescue efforts

https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2018/07/0...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
Further news on the conditions - a diver expressed that there is a net out-flow from the cave, so that divers have a current to fight to reach the team. As the current approaches the speed the divers can swim/pull themselves the time required rapidly approaches infinity.

This also leads to explaining the death of the Thai diver, Saman Kunan, RIP. If he was even a little slower he would be struggling more to make progress and taking longer. If the water is not clear he might not have been able to see the pressure gage or even a watch to better estimate. If he timed it to take so many hours, just a bit longer would be lethal.

Without current the duration of the trip would be easily predicted.

The good news is that it is outflow, so the time the escaping children will need to be under water is greatly reduced. The bad news is the onset of monsoon season and predictions of imminent rain mean they may have to do this without enough practice or worse, enough equipment.

They are pulling a nearly 3 mile long air line to the team, but it gets back to the ability to push enough air at the pressure the hose can take to overcome the flow losses.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

I wonder if they could set off a smoke bomb(device) in the cave and check the the outside for any visible sign of smoke escaping which could pinpoint other exits not yet found....the downside is that it may contaminate any remaining air in the cave....no easy answers here, just pray that it all will end well...

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

SAIL3: They've pist away a valuable week... does not bode well.

Dik

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

I see two issues with Elon Musk's long nylon tube idea.
Locating a suitable tube quickly.
Installing the tube against the outflow current.
If a suitable tube can be located, the onsite divers can probably find a way to install it.
In regards to drilling an escape passage, I hope that someone checks the ambient air pressure in the cave first. If the air pressure is above atmospheric, you don't want to vent an air pocket and allow the water to completely fill the chamber.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

It appears that an active rescue effort is now underway:

Rescue Operation To Save Boys Trapped In Cave Begins

Rescuers said it would take many hours before the first boy emerged from the cave.


https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/thailand-cave...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

If they have a crew, and, can work in shifts... why stop at night; there's little difference in the cave. It's kinda dark anyway.

Dik

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Hi dik;
"If they have a crew, and, can work in shifts... why stop at night;"
There must be a reason.
With the impending rains I am sure that the rescuers feel the pressure more intensely than we do.
I would speculate that only the divers with the most experience in this cave were used on the initial rescue.
It is quite possible that the first rescue shift divers may be paired with other divers on the second day.
I feel that there is an excellent chance that all the boys may be rescued on the second day, but time will tell.
What is needed now is not our speculations but our prayers.
And, all our speculations may become moot after the next two days.
Yours
Bill

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

waross: Concur

Dik

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Quote:

why stop at night
The staged air tanks need to be replaced.

This is looking very hopeful!

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Dangerous Subterranean Rescue Mission Begins in Thailand, 6 Boys Already Brought to Safety

www.westernjournal.com

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Quote (Bangkok Post)

Four more boys safely out as day two mission ends

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

HotRod10 - thanks for the link. There's a lot of work going on - I bet it is very physically exhausting.

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RE: Kids trapped in a cave

You do know that there is a required rest period for divers between dives. Something about nitrogen in the blood.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

They have 8 out but the remaining ones are the weakest so they may be more difficult to extract. Supposedly the coach is in worse shape than the kids because he gave them all his water and food before they were found. Hope the rains hold off.

----------------------------------------

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RE: Kids trapped in a cave

The rest period depends on how deep the dive is. Based on what I've seen in the articles, most of the dives shouldn't require decompression stops.

http://www.rescuediver.org/physics/divetabel.htm

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
No more decompression is required than for passengers on commercial flights. Although, fun fact, it has occurred that divers who are just below normal decompression requirements have developed the bends when hopping on commercial flights a bit too soon; they would have been fine if they'd stayed on the ground for another day, but the drop in pressure relative to the dive pressure is too much.

That it takes so many hours to get in and out over such a short distance for people who are likely in top physical condition and desperate to accomplish this task suggests a huge physical effort is required. I expect there aren't many people running back-to-back marathons and those are only a few hours with unrestricted movement and plenty of air.

I think the rescue team has had huge luck in the lack of rain allowing the pumping to get ahead of the inflow.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Why don't they use rebreathers - for the experienced divers?

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

2
(OP)
The experienced divers did use rebreathers. But those use CO2 soaks to remove the CO2 and still require an O2 source to make up for consumed oxygen. They benefit from the inability (thank goodness) of human lungs to absorb 100% of the oxygen on each breath, which is wasted in conventional scuba gear to get rid of the CO2, but that doesn't mean they have unlimited capacity. They also benefit that no gas needs to be expelled from the system; the nitrogen (or helium??) inert bulk is just recycled (but there is a second tank of diluent to make up for losses) and O2 added as required to be converted to CO2 and absorbed. So they are great if bubble production is a problem, like sneaking explosives or assassins onto heavily guarded boats. Or probably drugs into the rudder wells of ships. They are also good in letting a given size cylinder allow the diver stay underwater for longer.

However - humans are really bad at detecting low oxygen levels. In fact they can't. Really, it's worse than can't. Some start feeling euphoric and think that it's better and then they pass out and soon die. What people can detect is CO2 levels which causes gasping for breath, but O2 needs an independent monitor and that monitor needs to be monitored by the diver consistently. Which is why rebreathers are typically used only by people with the experience/habit/ability to remember to look at the monitor even in the face of life-threatening distraction, because if the O2 is not being replenished, they will feel really good about themselves and they they will die - if no one else notices and helps them. When diving, in the dark, in a cave, that would be, no one helps them; even buddy diving because the buddy can't see the monitor all the time.

To be fair, electronics have been developed to do the monitoring, control, and alerting the diver about the rebreather gas condition, but it's still a great deal more risk than a tank with a differential pressure regulator.

Another, big problem with rebreathers is that there is a large diameter hose to and from the absorbant. It has to be large because the air is moved by the user's diaphragm and restriction will tire the diver. This hose needs to be flexible and will be quite buoyant because of the diameter and therefore easier (because there are two sides) to snag. Regular scuba uses a small high pressure hose that is relatively a lot tougher. Snagging won't cut it, just pulling the regulator loose from the diver's mouth (reaching back to the tank to find the hose and reel in a displaced mouthpiece is Diving 101, so it's an annoyance. Likewise re-placing and clearing a flooded face mask.) I expect rebreather hoses to be cut resistant, but they would be too inflexible if they were as tough as high-pressure hoses are.

Finally, it looks like rebreathers are larger; essentially the diver has lungs to process the CO2 out and the rebreather has a "lung" to absorb the CO2 in addition to the oxygen and diluent tanks. In regular diving one could just trail a series of air tanks and as each is depleted, swap to the new one using a spare hose and regulator. The farther the diver goes and the more tired they are, the less they are carrying. Circumstances will favor a constant drag that starts smaller vs a variable drag.

If I had to get through small gaps, surrounded by sharp rocks, I'd rather go with a smaller diameter metal tank with a small, tough hose than trying to get an external artificial lung with a big loop of hose through the opening. OTOH, like the first diver, if I had no idea just how far was required, I'd go with the system that gave the longest range.

Finally, I doubt there is any good way to tandem a rebreather. With one tank and two regulator lines the lead diver can keep an eye on the supply for both parties no matter the experience of the second diver.

I didn't know all of this at the start. Though I understood general principles Google was my buddy in details about rebreathers. I think they predate scuba tanks / high-pressure + regulators, but I think they were out of general favor due to the much higher risk. The development of micro-electronics to monitor and control them seems to have breathed new life into their use. Long ago PADI training covers the rest. I went though training and check-out, but wasn't interested enough in finding dive locations to send in for the certification. Even so, a year later the wife and I had the fun trip to a Florida reef where the churning of the ocean in the shallow depth allowed us both to puke up our lunch and watch the fish gather around and pick off the tasty bits.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Don't re-breathers use electricity? What happens when Mr Battery chokes?

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

They are all out!

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

It's hard to really know what went on without being there, but from my outsider perspective that rescue operation was an incredible feat of determination, sacrifice, bravery and logistics. Very inspiring.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

I think the rescue operation was a needless action. Not that they should not have been saved, but that likely they should not have been their in the first place.
So one should ask, where was the adult leadership?

At some point, I expect that the rescuers where asking if this was worth it.

Still it looks good in the press, but this still looks reckless on the part of the coach.

I guess we all need a hero, or event to remind us we are human, and not just <insert self blaming name here>.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
The first rebreathers, per Wikipedia, were an air-filled bag of lime and a determined diver. The current ones seem to use electricity only for the monitor and the solenoids, but it's easy to have a battery that lasts days to weeks for those functions. The circulation of air is from the diver breathing - as the air is squeezed out from their lungs a chamber in the back pack expands to accept the volume while the gas is directed through a CO2 absorbent. Since it is constant volume there is no net change in buoyancy. Since they are both at the same pressure there is only flow-losses to overcome. I haven't come across what they did to begin with - probably set a needle valve to bleed oxygen at a diver-adjustable rate and then maintain exhaled volume at a constant level or one that is corrected for depth. If nominal levels can be allowed to peak at 25% O2 and drop to 15% O2, that gives a system volume change of about 10% to work with.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

With the original rebreathers the diver breathed pure O2. They are very simple, mechanically. Just an O2 bottle, a CO2 absorber and a expansion bladder in the breathing loop. But pure O2 is toxic above 2 atm. So modern rebreathers control O2 concentration versus depth in the breathing loop, using N2 or He. This requires very sophisticated sensors and computer controls and associated training because the consequence of any error is usually death without warning.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Quote (cranky108)

At some point, I expect that the rescuers where asking if this was worth it.

It's ironic... it was exactly this type of human activity that got us out of the caves in the first place... What's the expression, "a turtle only makes progress, when he sticks his neck out."

Dik

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

I wondered the same, cranky, but so far had not voiced it. These kids were so far back in the cave (miles!), and through at least one spot that was only 15" wide?! I'm either missing some huge part of the story, or these kids were not just looking to get out of the rain.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

I heard a snippet that they were going to write their names on the wall of some big cave, possibly this Payatta Beach location, but then by the sounds of it, it started raining hard and they couldn't get back and were forced deeper and deeper into the cave.

You wouldn't have got me further than about 50m.... don't like confined spaces.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/why-were-the...

According to the bbc

"He went missing on his birthday and his parents say they are still waiting to hold his party.

According to reports, the boys went into the cave to celebrate Night's birthday. They were said to have brought treats and snacks along with them.

These supplies probably helped sustain the group in the many days spent trapped inside the cave.


Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

I think more recklessness than bad luck. There were posted signs warning not to go in during the rainy season. I applaud the rescuers, they were doing heroic work even if the kids and especially the coach, were stupid. The real shame is the Thai Navy Seal diver who died.

How long before the movie comes out?

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RE: Kids trapped in a cave


Quote (dgallup)

There were posted signs warning not to go in during the rainy season.

Technically they entered the cave on June 23. I guess the rains came early this year..

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Quote (3DDave)

I haven't come across what they did to begin with - probably set a needle valve to bleed oxygen at a diver-adjustable rate
The earliest ones I know much about (the Proto set) used a diaphragm regulator to maintain a constant pressure drop across a fixed orifice to provide a constant oxygen flow. The bag (what you'd call a counterlung these days) had a relief valve to burp off the excess if you consumed oxygen more slowly than it was provided and there was a manual bypass valve to let you put extra oxygen in if you breathed the bag flat, and to allow you to flush inert gases out the loop (inert gases being a bit of a killer if you weren't careful).

A.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

3
Incredible detail on the rescue in the New York Times:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/12/world/asia/thai...

They basically immobilized the kids and carried them, floated them, slid them, zip lined them, and transported them underwater to get them out. What an operation!

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Thanks for that link, Spartan5.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Very interesting, not how I had envisioned it at all. First I'd heard of other divers being hospitalized too.

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RE: Kids trapped in a cave

3
A lot of good thinking and a lot of team work went into that effort.
A job well done.
A moment of reflection for the seal who didn't make it. Sad.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Elon Musk is a horrible narcissist. Levies unsubstantiated pedophilia accusation against the lead explorer who was responsible for all of the extensive mapping that was insturmental in the success of the operation. Because said individual rightfully called the submarine Musk dropped off there a PR stunt.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/...

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

I wonder if Musk will now pilot his sub the path just to prove it could work. recording trip time to see if it would have been better

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Haven't seen pictures of this so-called "mini sub", but Musk has obviously never been in a cave where the crevices are barely big enough to squeeze through. Someone should tell him that Fantastic Voyage is fiction, not real.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
ornerynorsk - your default signature is ironic in comparison with your criticism of Musk.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

I dont understand Elon Musks angle here. It was obvious his initial effort may have been PR and I think thats fine. But when someone basically comes to the conclusion that yeah it wont work; he goes ballistic and ruins any PR he may have garnered.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

"he goes ballistic and ruins any PR he may have garnered."

That's typically a symptom of Dunning-Kruger and gross immaturity. I just can't think of any other public figure that's demonstrated their gross immaturity on social media.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Really, I can think of a orange public figure that regularly demonstrates gross immaturity on social media. Or was that meant to be ironic?

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RE: Kids trapped in a cave

3DDave, LOL. He's just not very comfortable to have had one of the ideas that was wrong. Pretty easy to pass or fail that one before the equipment ever gets loaded on the plane based on smallest constriction.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
ornerynorsk - you do know that Musk was reacting to being told to injure himself, and not just being told it would not work?

Edit: There's a huge list of things people told Musk he could not -ever- accomplish, and yet he managed those OK.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

The exhortation was part and parcel to the criticism that the sub idea was a dog. My opinion is that it came from Musk trying to make a publicity stunt out of this.


Had he done it quietly and behind the scenes, he could still have taken credit after it succeeded. Clearly, though, his self aggrandization and promotion got in the way of doing something good.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Sounds like I may have missed something in the articles.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Unsworth told Musk to shove his mini-sub up his arse.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Yeah, that would be enough to set most people off :>)

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

The guy is an accomplished cave driver and a Brit. Too sensitive if you consider that comment out of order. I shudder to think what an Aussie would have told Musk to do with his toy sub.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Under all those millions, the need to strike back at any slight on social media must be driven by a fragile ego.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Even if his sub was usable it was too late. The rescue started shortly after he delivered it. They already had an extensive and detailed plan in place that, with big risks, they believed would work. I can't see them shelving it to evaluate Musk's idea, even if they thought it was reasonable.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

2
His whole trip was nothing more than a publicity stunt and I fully expect his site tour did nothing more than disrupt the people doing the actual rescue work. And he got called on it. He should have been told to shove his plans to visit us his ass. What else should he have expected to happen?

He's a childish, egotistical narcissist who can give speeches that sweet talk people into believing his dreams so they give up their time, intelligence and money towards them. If he couldn't talk so many into following his dreams like a cult leader convinces followers to drink the cool-aid, then his ventures wouldn't manage to miss so many deadlines and yet still get more investment and more support each time a deadline is missed.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

If you google "Elon Musk lashes out", it seems as if he doesn't do anything else. The man needs a new hobby.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

I thought the submarine that Elon Musk came up with was a total joke.

Jerry J.
UGV5-NX11

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

I suppose I will have to grudgingly point out that Billionaire Musk claims that he was asked to develop the sub by one of the rescue team, and so when one of the other team members criticised it publicly he felt that was out of order. Do I believe that? Hmmm.

As to thing itself, it was a cigar tube with air tanks. If they had super accurate 3d models of every twist and bend in the cavern I guess it might have worked. Of course if it had got stuck then 13 lives were being gambled on one ego.

Anyway, let's celebrate the successful rescue, respect the dead diver's contribution, and move on.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
Perhaps a new topic needs to be started - "Attacking Musk for Breathing"

The subject for this thread was to get ideas for what would work, not character assassination, even by those who believe it is deserved.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Hokie... the Aussie would have given him assistance at the task...

Dik

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Greg - my understanding was that it was a Twitter fan who asked, possibly from Africa.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

All the boys & their coach have been released from hospital.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/boys-rescued-...

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RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Quote (3DDave)

Attacking Musk for Breathing

"Breathing" ?

Without intending to trigger-off WWIII, is that really an accurate word choice ?

smile

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Re: Twitter.
I hope that Mr. Musk's rants are not the opening salvo of a campaign for higher political office.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

It worked for the last guy...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

And if they did change the Constitution, he'd have to stand in line behind the likes of Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jennifer Granholm...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
VE1BLL - some people demanded he act to help the children detained by border patrol instead of those in the cave. At this point the figurative pitchforks are out.

There's a history of his involvement - https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-full-story-behind-...

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

I have no doubt that Elon donates to charities and political parties.
I respect that Elon tried to help with a solution and spent a lot of money trying to help.
Up until then, Elon's efforts deserve respect and thanks.
Unfortunately, I understand that the sub arrived when the rescue was in progress.
That is probably when things started to go sideways.
I surmise that the dive team (including the Brit diver with years of experience in that cave) decided to continue with the rescue plan that was working and declined the sub.
Given that a pump failed and the last diver made it out against fast rising water is a strong indication that the decision to continue with a plan that was working rather than take time out to test a new method was the correct action.
There were probably some harsh words and heated tempers when Elon was told that his sub was not needed.
That's when it started to go sideways.
The Brit was probably exhausted and short tempered and still upset from the confrontation with Elon.
Telling Elon to shove his sub where it hurts, (stuff it in your nose, that's gotta hurt) was an understandable departure from good manners.
There are a lot of ways that Elon could have responded some more classy than others, some more acceptable than others.
Silence may have been a wise choice.
I see Elon's slur as crossing a line.
A personal attack against an individual by a figure with the public profile, influence and resources of Elon is the act of a bully.
I would like to say to Elon:
"Thank you for trying to help.
However your slur against one of the rescuers was the unacceptable act of an spoiled egotistical bully.
I respect your technical achievements.
As a person I have no respect for you whatsoever.
I don't much like bullies."
p.s.
"If you don't like this, shove it up your nose!

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

waross: it raises the question... how can someone so smart be so stupid...

Dik

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
waross -

From a Sun article https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6743086/british-thai... :

Two British divers were the first to discover the desperate lads trapped 2.5miles down the Tham Luang cave system in Chiang Rai, Northern Thailand.

The boys, from the Wild Boars football club, got lost during a visit to the notorious tunnel network with their coach on June 23.

It was not until July 2, nine days later, that a massive search operation to track down the missing team ended in joy; they were all found alive.

Brit scuba heroes Richard Stanton and John Volanthen made the euphoric discovery after bravely traversing the labyrinth of caverns and passages.

What other British Divers were involved in the rescue?

Robert Harper
Robert Harper, 70, is a cave diving expert who oversaw the mission to locate the lost boys.
He was thanked by Thai authorities and given a hero's send-off as he departed.
Sports minister Weerasak Kowsurat said he showed "dedication to duty and professionalism".

Chris Jewell
Chris Jewell is a member of the Cave Diving Group, Britain's oldest association of underground divers.

Jason Mallison
Mr Mallison is also a member of the Cave Diving Group.
He joined Mr Stanton and Mr Volanthen in 2010 when they broke the record for the longest ever cave dive - swimming 4.4miles.

Tim Acton
Tim Acton, 39, moved from his native Essex to run a holiday complex in Thailand with his wife, Took.
He was inside the cave system several times during the operation.


Not one mention of anyone thanking Unsworth.

Added - Same thing here: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44791998 which even slights Unsworth's claim about the Thai's needing his expert experience:

"Rescuers also turned to the villagers for local knowledge. The Thai Navy Seals found a boy, a Wild Boar member who happened to have skipped the cave expedition. He recalled a place in the complex they'd visited before - called Pattaya Beach."

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

It's a terrible shame that one of the divers lost his life. Other than that, a great story and adventure.

Dik

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Musk, billionaire CEO status notwithstanding, made a horrible unfounded accusation. There is no defense for it. None. It is going to be fantastic when Unsworth gets a payday for this via the libel suit. He was instrumental in the recovery of the boys!

Quote:

Even when they could talk to each other, searchers did not know where to look or how to find their way. The SEALs would find themselves essentially lost after hours-long dives, with still no sign of the young boys. On June 27, fast-rising waters filled the cave — so fast that it was the equivalent of a house flooding in 10 minutes.

“Our three hours of draining became nothing,” the Thai navy commander said.

They found help from an unlikely expert.

Vernon Unsworth, a British insurance consultant and hobbyist spelunker, has made an obsession of the Tham Luang cave system. He had explored miles of it over a decade, planning his travels between England and Thailand around the rainy season. He was convinced that the Thais were looking in the wrong place. Unsworth had strong views on where to look and who should be doing the looking.

“Time is running out,” he wrote in a letter to the governor, according to Unsworth’s wife. He listed the names of three British cave divers he pegged as the best in the world. “Please contact them through UK Embassy ASAP.”

The Thai government agreed.

Within days, his Brits were in the cave, and a search that most had given up as futile took an electrifying turn.

And from June 26 (3 days after they went missing):
http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/cave-information-...

Quote:

Information from Mr.Vern Unsworth a western caving explorer who has extensively explored caves in Thailand and satellite images of the mountainous terrain of Tham Luang-Khun Nam Nang Non cave have been supplied by the Department of Mineral Resources to seal rescue teams which will help in the operations to search and rescue 13 school footballers and coach trapped inside the cave.

Mr Chaiyaporn Siripornpaibul, a caving expert of the Mineral Resourdces Department, admitted on Tuesday that the department had very limited information about the Tham Luang-Khun Nam Nang Non only about one kilometer into the cave from its entrance and, therefore, had to rely on the information of a western caving expert.

The cave information, satellite images and map will help in the search for ways to get into the cave instead of through the cave entrance which is obstructed by flooding, said Chaiyaporn.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/13/uk/thai-cave-rescue...

Quote:

British caver Vern Unsworth, 63, who lives in Chiang Rai, was instrumental in linking up the Thai authorities with the British experts. "I was actually scheduled to go into the cave on June 24 anyway," Unsworth told CNN in an interview in Thailand."I got all my gear ready, and I was going in to do a solo trip just to see what the water levels were like. And I got called out at 2 o'clock Sunday morning, and I was there for the whole 17 days."

Unsworth's role in the rescue was also pivotal because of his intimate knowledge of the Tham Luang cave system, which he describes as his "second home" after spending the past six years exploring it.

It was Unsworth who initally pinpointed where he thought the Wild Boars team would be waiting. They were found 200 meters away from that point, which was "probably around about the best place they could have been," he said.

In the early days of the search operation, Unsworth said he quickly realized that outside expertise was required, and advised the Thai authorities to bring in specialist cave divers who had dealt with similar rescues in the past.
"It was a race against time," he said. "They needed world class divers and that's what we got."

He was the first one to suggest calling for help from Volanthen, Stanton and Robert Harper -- who arrived a few days into the search on June 27.

"(They went) straight into the cave," Unsworth said. "That's when things started to really happen."
He had been involved in cave rescue operations in the UK before, but "nothing on this scale."

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

FLASH! MORE FAKE NEWS FROM CNN.

Quote (CNN)

Link
British diver helped pinpoint boy's location
British caver Vern Unsworth, 63, who lives in Chiang Rai, was instrumental in linking up the Thai authorities with the British experts. "I was actually scheduled to go into the cave on June 24 anyway," Unsworth told CNN in an interview in Thailand."I got all my gear ready, and I was going in to do a solo trip just to see what the water levels were like. And I got called out at 2 o'clock Sunday morning, and I was there for the whole 17 days."
Unsworth's role in the rescue was also pivotal because of his intimate knowledge of the Tham Luang cave system, which he describes as his "second home" after spending the past six years exploring it.
He had been involved in cave rescue operations in the UK before, but "nothing on this scale."
It was Unsworth who initally pinpointed where he thought the Wild Boars team would be waiting. They were found 200 meters away from that point, which was "probably around about the best place they could have been," he said.
The flooding of the cave could not have been predicted, he said, as the floodwater had come through three to four weeks earlier than last year.
"These kids were just totally unlucky. Wrong place, wrong time," he said. "It happened very quick. You can't blame the coach, you can't blame the kids."

Race against time
In the early days of the search operation, Unsworth said he quickly realized that outside expertise was required, and advised the Thai authorities to bring in specialist cave divers who had dealt with similar rescues in the past.
"It was a race against time," he said. "They needed world class divers and that's what we got."
He was the first one to suggest calling for help from Volanthen, Stanton and Robert Harper -- who arrived a few days into the search on June 27.
"(They went) straight into the cave," Unsworth said. "That's when things started to really happen."
.........
Chatting to CNN in a leafy café north of Chiang Rai, Unsworth appeared exhausted physically and emotionally, and is still reeling from the outcome of the rescue.

WILL THE FAKE NEWS NEVER STOP?

Quote (THE SUN UK EDITION)

UNSUNG HERO Who is Vernon Unsworth? Thai cave rescue diver called ‘paedo guy’ by Elon Musk
The Brit caver co-led the operation to save the schoolboys from Tham Luang cave

Who is Vernon Unsworth?
Vernon Unsworth, is a 63-year-old financial broker from St Albans, Hertfordshire.
He discovered his love for exploring cave systems in the Yorkshire Dales.
The experienced Brit caver now lives in Chiang Rai, Thailand.
Before the Thai rescue operation, he had been in a number of rescue efforts in the UK, but "nothing on this scale"
........
Mr Unsworth was the first foreign rescuer at the scene and played a crucial role in saving the 12 boys and their football coach.
He spent years exploring the Tham Luang cave system where the boys were trapped for 17 days, meaning he had expert knowledge that was vital to the rescue.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6792661/who-vernon-u...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news hmmm is this the same site? https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6743086/british-thai... :
Where have I seen that site?

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
waross - "Unsworth told" and an article - after his CNN interview.

I've looked for anything that is independent of the CNN interview that shows he has done anything or has been acknowledged by anyone besides his own statements.

I would have expected that the divers who arrived would have mentioned that they were stirred to action by his personal call for help or thanked him profusely for the maps that he provided.

Aside from the previous survey the only map I saw was from the diver's sketches of what they encountered.

It seems like a revisionist history placing Unsworth front and center after the CNN interview and after Musk called him out ou it.

The first thing I found when he first came up was a photo of him putting tape on the split sole of his boot.

But it's like he vanishes completely between the day the Thai rescue team arrives and the CNN interview where he goes after Musk. The only direct source of information about his role has been him.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Hi Dave'
Are you working for Musk on his PR spin team?
You post a link to this site: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6743086/british-thai... :
"that is independent of the CNN interview" look here: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6792661/who-vernon-u...

What part of ELON MUSK'S SLUR WAS AND IS UNACCEPTABLE do you not understand?
Regardless of who did what and when ELON MUSK'S SLUR WAS AND IS UNACCEPTABLE.
Elon Musk's slur cannot be excused by your incomplete Goggleing.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Quote (3DDave)

I've looked for anything that is independent of the CNN interview that shows he has done anything or has been acknowledged by anyone besides his own statements.
You're not looking too hard. I posted a link from the Thai Public Broadcast Service from 3 days after they went missing which acknowledges and credits him. It's pretty clear he was in early on this.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/cave-information-...

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
I know that Vernon Unsworth was there early on, and I know he talked to the press. I am concerned when the facts about him shifted from being a nearby caver that was wrong about where to find the children and being wrong about shutting off the water flow into the cave to being a career rescue diving life risking hero primarily responsible for guiding the entire rescue operation and getting the Thai government to act to save the stranded team.

It seems the shift was necessary to bury his initial attack on Musk and prepare a defense against Musk's comment.

Even here it is suspicious - "Mr Chaiyaporn Siripornpaibul, a caving expert of the Mineral Resources Department, admitted on Tuesday that the department had very limited information about the Tham Luang-Khun Nam Nang Non only about one kilometer into the cave from its entrance," which is weird because there is a survey that was done by another team in 1986 and 1987 and published in final form in 2010.

I posted a link to it: https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36... If they had limited information, it wasn't necessary for Unsworth to be involved to find it.

The Sun coverage of the last few days is not independent of the CNN interview because they got their information from exactly the same source - Vernon Unsworth's mouth, after the CNN interview, and in reaction to Musk's Tweet about the CNN interview.

"UNSUNG HERO Who is Vernon Unsworth? Thai cave rescue diver ... The Brit caver co-led the operation to save the schoolboys from Tham Luang cave"

He's not listed by anyone as a diver, not photographed in diving gear, not acknowledged by any other divers, so how did he rescue anyone? And what did he do that was heroic - find a map? Co-led the rescue effort with who? I've seen no defense of Unsworth by anyone on the rescue team and that leaves me suspicious of the press descriptions of Unsworth's involvement.

I don't care one way or the other about their particular dispute. They both behaved badly and I think Unsworth essentially calling Musk a child-killer for being unconcerned about saving them in order to generate PR is on the same or more egregious level as Musk's response. Weren't the claims that Musk's ego interfered with the rescue efforts or that the sub could get wedged and doom them all? Seems like calling Musk and his team a bunch of cold-blooded egomaniac child-killers to me.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Quote (waross)

Given that a pump failed and the last diver made it out against fast rising water is a strong indication that the decision to continue with a plan that was working rather than take time out to test a new method was the correct action.

Perhaps a small point, given all of the hubbub, but... I hear/read statements like this often, and I take issue with it. It was a lucky one, it was one that worked out in the end... but that doesn't necessarily make it the right one. Had another option worked, then it would have been called the correct action.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Possibly the best response here is to dedicate an old song to you.
Simon and Garfunckles
The Sound of Silence.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Had the sub gotten itself jammed in an already tight passage, that would have been the WRONG decision. I think that had they more time, Musk's solution MIGHT have been a good choice, but if it didn't work out, the boys would have been doomed.

In the end, the conventional approach had the fewest unk-unks, and that's what made it the right decision.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Kids trapped in a cave

Quote (3DDave)

I know that Vernon Unsworth was there early on, and I know he talked to the press. I am concerned when the facts about him shifted from being a nearby caver that was wrong about where to find the children and being wrong about shutting off the water flow into the cave to being a career rescue diving life risking hero primarily responsible for guiding the entire rescue operation and getting the Thai government to act to save the stranded team.

It seems the shift was necessary to bury his initial attack on Musk and prepare a defense against Musk's comment.

...

I don't care one way or the other about their particular dispute. They both behaved badly and I think Unsworth essentially calling Musk a child-killer for being unconcerned about saving them in order to generate PR is on the same or more egregious level as Musk's response. Weren't the claims that Musk's ego interfered with the rescue efforts or that the sub could get wedged and doom them all? Seems like calling Musk and his team a bunch of cold-blooded egomaniac child-killers to me.

Straying into straw-man territory here, 3D... I haven't seen anything about Unsworth "being a career rescue diving life risking hero primarily responsible for guiding the entire rescue operation." That aside, you admit he helped significantly. Not that it matters. Because even if had had just spent 2 weeks outside of the cave entrance tending pumps, Musk's attack was unwarranted.

And it's clear you care one way or the other. Because you have to parse "PR stunt" into "essentially calling Musk a child-killer for being unconcerned about saving them" to justify Musk's leveling of a horrible slur against that person.

It's also clear, that concern for the children or not, Musk saw this as and was making the most of it as an opportunity for self-promotion.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

'However your slur against one of the rescuers was the unacceptable act of an spoiled egotistical bully.
I respect your technical achievements.
As a person I have no respect for you whatsoever.
I don't much like bullies."'

Was this necessary? Bullies steal lunch money for there own personal gain, but any of us can call people names (even the victims).

By redefining the term bullies, you make angry people into bullies, and make the term rather moot in the long term.

Yes I get angry and call people names (though I try to keep it to myself), I don't steal any ones lunch money.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

See, you learn something new every day. I didn't know that someone has to be stealing lunch money before they can be called a bully.

RE: Kids trapped in a cave

(OP)
I admit that the rescue did not need Unsworth. If I gave some other impression, it escapes me how.

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