×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
• Talk With Other Members
• Be Notified Of Responses
• Keyword Search
Favorite Forums
• Automated Signatures
• Best Of All, It's Free!

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

#### Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

# Kentucky Bourbon crashes5

## Kentucky Bourbon crashes

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Very funny Hokie!

Seriously though does that structure look crazy flimsy. That's a lot of heavy barrels and not much structure to hold them.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Here are some better pictures showing the extent of the 'tragedy':

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

I always wondered why the wineries in California never figured it out, until an earthquake came along. Maybe they all get too wrapped up in their product.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

I took a tour of that distillery last year and this looks like one of the buildings we went through. I was interesting that they used coal to power their boilers.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

(OP)
This says that the storage building was built in the 1940's. It also says that some of the product will be recoverable, and that there is a basement which serves as a spill containment.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-22...

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Note that some of the pictures shows that this particular structure was built near were the ground started to sloop downward, as seen below:

There has been some very heavy rains in that part of the country this past week. Could it be that there might have been some soil slippage that could have undermined the foundation?

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Bourbon leaking into the water supply? What's the problem?

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Ron:

When you water the lawn, the grass comes up half cut...

Dik

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

With the new tariffs coming in place, you, likely didn't need all that bourbon, anyway...

Dik

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Ron: sad, almost drives you to drink...

Dik

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Ron... I like Old Forrester... after Canadian Club it's my favourite. I'm not partial to Crown Royal... over blended... but I do like CC. Like the seal that walks into a bar, and says, "Anything, but a Canadian Club."

Dik

dik...

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

I've been in several of these structures over the years, born and raised in Kentucky.

From an engineering standpoint, these are scary structures. Wood frames with sheet metal walls and roof. Barrels on horizontal racks with 4 or 5 racks per floor and the warehouses are 4 or 5 floors tall. Very little cross bracing. Most of the buildings have been around for decades, but the newer ones are built the same way.

Got to say that I never feel completely comfortable when I'm in one of the these warehouses.

Mike Lambert

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Curious as to why these structures are not held to the same building code as any other structure that requires human occupancy...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

I tried to come up with a spiked punch line, but couldn't find the bourbon.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

♪♫♬♪ ♫♬♪♫ ♬♪♫♬♪♫ ♬♪♫♬ ♪♫♬♪♫♬ ♪♫♬ ♪♫♬
3629 barrels of bourbon on the wall, 3629 barrels of bourbon.
Break one support then they all fall down.
3629 barrels of bourbon on the ground.

♪♫♬♪ ♫♬♪♫ ♬♪ ♫♬♪♫ ♬♪♫♬ ♪♫♬♪♫♬♪ ♫♬♪♫♬

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

#### Quote (dik)

When you water the lawn, the grass comes up half cut...

Do you have proof of that?

Skip,

Just traded in my OLD subtlety...
for a NUance!

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

I wonder if termites had anything to do with the failure?

Good luck,
Latexman

To a ChE, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

#### Quote (skipvought)

Do you have proof of that?

90 proof...

Dik

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

...any pudding?

...although there’s no proof that the proof is spirit strength, one might assay the proof if there is any in the partaking of the pudding.

Skip,

Just traded in my OLD subtlety...
for a NUance!

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

#### Quote (MacGuyver)

Curious as to why these structures are not held to the same building code as any other structure that requires human occupancy...

Because they don't require occupancy. No one lives or works permanently in them- so they are classified differently.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Besides, to what extent do you think the whisky industry influences the setting of building codes in Kentucky?

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

I think you will need to look at the date that was built and what if any codes applied. This was a problem that was known of. Nobody will admit that, but I bet this building has creaked and groaned for decades. I would think a layperson could have walked thru that and came out asking questions about safety. That was a $10million+ problem to fix today, and now provided they have sufficient coverage they might be covered by insurance. The whiskey stored might not be covered for its worth, so who knows how this works out in the end. Its great nobody was injured. ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes For many years, agricultural bldgs. and industrial bldgs., on their own properties were pretty much exempted from the bldg. codes in many locales. It was assumed that they did their own engineering for themselves and cared about their own assets, few people (the public) were involved, they cared enough not to endanger their own operations, they were self- responsible and self-insured, etc. As long as the last barn, warehouse, bldg. was still standing and performing o.k., they did the next one the same way, the old ‘has withstood the test of time’ thing. It’s probably actually a fairly stable storage system as long as every barrel or row or level is placed properly, and as long as the plank dividers are placed properly, witness the few failures they have had, or they would have change their ways. But, if any of the above is not done properly, or something happens to touch it laterally, with a feather, you can get what we see here. Let today’s code writers (LRFD, IBC and all) get their hands on this and you probably couldn’t get a barrel into place through all the bracing and connections. I’ll bet the whole thing was perpetrated by the downstream folks, who hoped for significantly more spillage than occurred into the adjacent stream. They were planning on selling bourbon-n-water fresh out of the creek at their summer activities this year. ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes With all the rain that has been experienced in that part of the country this spring, that could still have been a factor in this. John R. Baker, P.E. (ret) EX-Product 'Evangelist' Irvine, CA Siemens PLM: UG/NX Museum: The secret of life is not finding someone to live with It's finding someone you can't live without ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes I have always struggled with the past performance argument during reviews. There was a arena roof collapse in our area and during the review an underlying defect was found. I always think what if I had reviewed that a month or so before the collapse. Would I have found it? I am not so sure because that defect was only uncovered after vast amounts of the roof were removed and it became visible. ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes Hasn't anyone noticed that this happened AFTER the EU threatened new tariffs on bourbon? I hope the insurance investigators check this closely, could have been an inside job, LOL. ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes Sounds like a case for... Johnny Dollar. ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes Bugs? ---------------------------------------- The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows. ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes https://www.abc57.com/news/9-000-barrels-of-bourbo... This report says it occurred whilst "having a wall repaired"..... https://www.whisky.com/whisky-database/distillerie... If you click on the video then either wait or go to 2.22 you can see the inside of these things. I like the pendulum where they load the warehouse in different locations to stop it falling down.... The text does sy these warehouses are particularly tall. Remember - More details = better answers Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it. ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes I'll take mine shaken, not stirred! ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes "This report says it occurred whilst "having a wall repaired"..." It's speculation to assume that the repair work was responsible, but it's a good speculation, as removing even a single board can compromise shear diaphragm capacity. If it was "on the edge", it wouldn't take much. ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes Update, Wednesday 4 July 2018. The REST of the building has collapsed. All walls and supports are down now. The story claimed the distillery tried to recover the barrels, but has very few removed. That surprises me: I would have figured an simple roll-away-and pickup-by-forklift would salvage many hundred barrels. I recognize that rolling/recovering/moving the barrels down low might loosen the pile and allow those further up to themselves move or roll. But you'd only have to work gradually. ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes Obviously never played "Pic-Up Stix". Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA) ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes wow. Those pictures. Commenting on the building code issues, wouldnt most engineers classify these structures as Risk Category I structures if they were built today. Looking at the pictures though, it appears to be a wood frame structure. lets do some napkin calcs. A standard barrel is around 60 gallons I think... so ballpark weight of each barrel is 512 lbs + self weight so... lets call it 550 even. Looks like the barrels are stacked 20 high. I cant tell their column spacing. It kind of looks like in the short side they have a column every barrel, but on the long side, it seems like perhaps its every 4 or 5 barrels. Just looking at the potential column loads with really rough trib areas, it looks like an axial loads in the range of 30-40 kips. Dont think I've ever done that with wood. Sidebar: read the CBS article after I wrote this, the barrels weight 550 lbs each, huzzah! my guess work was right! ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes Properly braced, it doesn't take a very big timber to support 40 kips. Seeing what portion of the structure was involved in the initial collapse, I suspect a shear diaphragm failure of some sort. The fact that it was being repaired at the time, makes that more likely in my mind. Diaphragm members (walls) that prevent racking seem to be commonly overlooked components of structural systems. ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes 8x8's or 10x10's depending on the species and bracing... Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA) ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes Ditto of dheng. There's probably thousands of structures in the US that were repurposed for something else, and maybe something else after that. An 8 x 8, properly installed, using good details can carry a heck of a lot. But if it's 30 feet long, a little bit crooked, slightly rotten and unbraced at the top, that capacity is much less. This looks like a structure that was built 80 years ago, maybe for something else, that someone decided to use as the whisky aging warehouse. They put in some hand built racks and stated putting barrels on them. When those got full, they added some more. This is perfect justice. They skimped on engineering (and maintenance), lost a bunch of valuable product, and will absorb a nominal fine for killing fish. No one was killed. Maybe we'll have a category in ASCE 7 or the Kentucky Building Code on whisky storage that they can ignore in the future. ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes Just thinking out loud, but if you wanted to build a wood storage building to store OAK barrels, what type of wood would make since? Then again maybe not, as there could be a shortage of that type of wood. And just how many bracings are needed for something that size (the size I don't recall was stated? Maybe the building was just properly aged (to failure). ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes If you're suggesting they should have built the storage building out of oak, cranky, that would be pricey. Plus, we don't know if it failed due to a lack of strength of the materials, inadequate bracing, inadequate connection hardware, or something else. It could have been made with steel, but if the members aren't connected properly, it would still fall down. ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes I am curious how the installation of a permanent plumb bob (2:38min+- of video) to monitor the building lean will play out with their insurer. That suggests knowledge of a problem. Latent defect clauses will be another thing I would be looking at in the terms of the agreement. I sure hope some poor engineer was not involved in the repair. Looking at the access to review the structure, and the mould that seems to grow on everything makes me cringe just thinking about taking on such an assignment. ### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes If I understand correctly, 20,000 barrels were involved in the first collapse, and 9000 more on the second collapse. At 53 gallons per barrel, granted they are not completely full, that is a lot of dollars of product that some$h!tbird on the board of directors is going to have to explain why better warehouse construction and maintenance were not a good idea. Liquor industry is the absolute king of what some people like to refer to as "greedy corporations". I don't know of another industry that could get away with something like this. Thank goodness nobody got hurt or killed. This is a swift kick to their collective groin and will hopefully make them wake up.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

"If I understand correctly, 20,000 barrels were involved in the first collapse, and 9000 more on the second collapse."

It was 9000 in the first collapse (see the link in the OP). I haven't seen what the total was, but you're right that it's a huge loss that should spur some changes. The potential for harm to employees may lead to stricter requirements for those types of structures by OSHA, if employees work in them.

Edit: The story linked in the OP says the building stored 20,000 barrels.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Hah! They'll weather this just fine by taking the insurance payment as well as enjoying the price hike since it's now a more rare item...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

and, they have a dozen buildings likely constructed in the same way... do they upgrade them? or, are the buildings uninsureable?

Dik

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

I would expect the insurance company (if it was insured) will require inspection of any other buildings they insure, and any necessary upgrades, in order to continue insuring those other buildings.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

The federal and state (KY) government require alcohol producers to carry insurance on any produced product which has not had excise tax paid yet. Excise tax does not get paid, usually until it is bottled. Each barrel contains about 55 gallons, likely at around 150 proof. At $13.50 federal excise tax per proof gallon (gallon at 100 proof), each barrel has ~$1,200 of federal excise tax. State tax is about half that. So each barrel is worth ~$1,800 in taxes. So, if half were damaged (29,000/2), that is$52,000,000 in potential taxes that went into the soil/rivers.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Well, it was 20,000 barrels that were housed there, but still a huge chunk of tax revenue. If just the taxes are potentially in the tens of millions, imagine the loss in sales revenue. They better hope those barrels are sturdy!

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Mark my word, Sazerac will do a special bottling at a premium price on any of the salvaged hooch . . . and people will pay it. Not sure how good of stuff this will end up being, with all the sediment and crud that got churned up in each barrel. I don't see how you could filter out that dregs flavor without taking the caramel color too. Barton Kentucky Avalanche 1792 1791-1/2!

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

I can't say the Liquor industry is worse than the oil and gas industries. Just better respected.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Bourbon battered fried catfish!

the article says a 1000 MINNOWS

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

I wonder how many locals have tried to sneak in there at night so far.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

HamburgerHelper:

I seriously doubt the insurer or health code will have any input into selling the retrieved barrels. It is likely 160 proof so about 80% ethanol (no bacteria or viruses) and the rickhouse was basically a shed which has no heat and allows for free ventilation. As far as improper storing, there is a artisan liquor distiller "Jefferson's Ocean" that stores their barrels on a boat in the middle of salt water body. So, basically anything goes for the most part.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Barrel proof should be well below 160. It will absorb moisture from the air and alcohol will evaporate as it breathes in the maturation process. Will still be a minimum of 120 to 125, though, enough to not have to worry about microbial meanies. Those barrels are sure stout, I would have expected many more to have been broken open by a tumble like that.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Pour a few dozen tons of sand on top, wet it, start removing barrels from the edge, re-grade the sand as necessary?

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

I may have been off a bit on the actual proof of what gets put in the barrel, but the end barrel proof depends on how long it has been in the barrel. If memory serves me correctly alcohol stored in barrels in Scotland gets weaker, but that stored in the U.S. actually gets stronger due to differences in climate.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Build a gantry crane gondola like they used over the Colorado River building the Hoover Dam. (And others in canyons like it.)

One fixed point tower on one side of the pile of barrels and rubble.
One mobile tower on tracks (radial) on the far side of the pile.

Four point connection for the grappling clamp (remote controlled) gondola on the cables spanning the pile: This gives you stability in light winds and allows you resist rotary reaction when the grapple clamps a barrel or a broken piece of wood.

Pickup up the top barrel on the pile, lift that barrel, rotate the moving tower radially until the lifting platform is over the salvage truck bed, lower away.
Pickup the highest piece of trash or broken barrel, rotate the moving tower until the pickup platform is over the dump pile or trash removal truck bed, lower away.

Rinse, wash, repeat until pile goes away.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

That's interesting Pedarrin2, I didn't know that proof strength could actually migrate upwards. The "angel's share" referred to in Scotland might have some new meaning now . . . perhaps angels are not fond of Bourbon!

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Worries about the qualities of the food are always interesting considering that birds take dumps on wheat fields and bugs crawl all over corn and worms are right up next to potatoes. But wash it, take it to the store and if it hits the floor it is now too contaminated to eat or sell. And let's not get to what happens when someone sneezes near the canned pop-top beverages. Not many soak those in bleach when they get home before opening them up to take a sip.

Anything that is tight enough to keep the alcohol in is tough enough to keep any bad stuff out.

"Barton's Lightly Battered Barrel Whisky" - rolls right into an advertising campaign.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

There will be barrels trapped under diagonally positioned timbers that are them selves trapped under more barrels that are in turn trapped under other timbers.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Sounds like they need an expert to help them. I hereby volunteer my services for a moderate fee...and a percentage of the salvage.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

For the value of the product, you can use a mobile platform and carefully remove 'sticks' on top of kegs and remove kegs and remove sticks, etc. Can be done safely...

Dik

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Any word on the fraction of barrels that broke open or otherwise leaked, versus the fraction that survived intact?

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

I would not be surprised to see a squadron of little excavators equipped with a thumb picking out the barrels. I have watched skilled operators sorting rebar with a thumb, and this would be easy picking. I suspect there is an accessory for barrels as well.

I bet there is already a marketing wizard working on a promotion to sell the product. Its about the story and what people will pay.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

ornerynorsk

The angels still get their share because no matter what, there will be less total alcohol in the barrel than when it started. I think the loss of alcoholic concentration in Scotch barrels has to do with higher humidity and lower temperature (in general) in Scotland causes more water to condense than alcohol to evaporate in the barrel. Both still typically dilute it before bottling.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

In 1962, the U.S. Treasury raised the legal maximum barrel entry proof from 110 to its current 125. Since you can buy barrel proof bottlings that are higher than 125 it obviously goes up during aging under the right circumstances.

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Distilled spirits tend to run 160 plus right out of the column, depending on pot temperature and condenser factors, so it's just going to go down from there. It would be an interesting experiment to see if proof can actually increase in the barrel. Were I a betting man I'd say no, but I've been wrong often enough to know better than to bet on things like that

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Thanks for the link, very interesting. Will read it in depth when I have the time.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

Page 157

Maturation in barrels is accompanied by a loss
of liquid by evaporation, and the relative rates of
loss of water and of alcohol determine whether
the aged whisky has a higher or lower alcoholic
strength than that at filling. In Scotland, where
the barrels of whisky are stored in cool,
unheated, but humid warehouses, the alcoholic
strength decreases (Valaer, 1940). In contrast
Valaer and Frazier (1936) reported that in the
US storage conditions cause an increase in
alcoholic strength
.

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

### RE: Kentucky Bourbon crashes

http://bourbonr.com/blog/sazerac-statement-on-the-...

"The remaining barrel warehouses at Barton 1792 Distillery have been inspected since June 22nd by third-party experts and are deemed safe. Barrel warehouses at the other two Sazerac owned distilleries in Kentucky have also been inspected and deemed safe."

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

#### Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

#### Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

#### Resources

Low-Volume Rapid Injection Molding With 3D Printed Molds
Learn methods and guidelines for using stereolithography (SLA) 3D printed molds in the injection molding process to lower costs and lead time. Discover how this hybrid manufacturing process enables on-demand mold fabrication to quickly produce small batches of thermoplastic parts. Download Now
Examine how the principles of DfAM upend many of the long-standing rules around manufacturability - allowing engineers and designers to place a partâ€™s function at the center of their design considerations. Download Now
Taking Control of Engineering Documents
This ebook covers tips for creating and managing workflows, security best practices and protection of intellectual property, Cloud vs. on-premise software solutions, CAD file management, compliance, and more. Download Now

Close Box

# Join Eng-Tips® Today!

Join your peers on the Internet's largest technical engineering professional community.
It's easy to join and it's free.

Here's Why Members Love Eng-Tips Forums:

• Talk To Other Members
• Notification Of Responses To Questions
• Favorite Forums One Click Access
• Keyword Search Of All Posts, And More...

Register now while it's still free!