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Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

If you can build high performance aircraft largely out of the stuff why not buildings?

Simplistically I'd think durability related issues given the likely longevity would be one of the biggest concerns along with fire risks as briefly mentioned in the article..

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

Just because you can, does not mean you should. Sounds like a type of P***ing contest.

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

I think I saw this first on South Park.

Would beavers be a problem?

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

With all the envelope problems deteriorating wood members, rot could be a real issue in a tall structure if the enclosure is not sealed correctly, especially at the lower levels where the carpenter ants start.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

Carpenter ants and termites, swelling and shrinkage with humidity and moisture, and fire safety had previously limited the wood structures to 2 stories + attic.

"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

It's CLT panels. They aren't building skyscrapers out of them anytime soon. I believe in parts of Canada (ontario and BC for sure) you're allowed to do wood frame up to 6 stories now.

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

The new NBCC is supposed to be allowing up to 6 storeys but it hasn't been adopted in my jurisdiction yet. Currently we're limited to 4.

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

We can do 5 if sprinklered.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

Wood timber framed.

Work fine, last long time.

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

Indeed they do, but I think you have to make a distinction between timber framing, whether ancient or modern,
and stick-building with graded matchsticks cut from trees that are farmed on a very short cycle
and harvested before they have any 'clear' content.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

I still count five wood over masonry.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

Way back in 1900 there were a series of major fires that demolished several cities ( primarily wood structures) , including Chicago and Seattle. Prior to that there was the London fire. Following those disasters , cities switched to brick construction , or wood with slate roofs. In addition to the CLT panels, I would guess that cities would require sprinklers + fire resistant siding and roofing .

"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

It is physically possible erect that structure. What is the demolition method for 100 story wooden sky scrapers? I think it would be short sighted to build a structure like that without a built in way to bring it down into its own footprint. Just fly a 747 into it about 3/4 way up?

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

Kenat,

I expected a beaver reference.

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

We could make this environmentally friendly by building the main structural components with live trees. It also makes sense from a financial perspective as your building would physically grow.

Here's how it works.
- Plant trees at 4 corners of proposed building location
- Wait for trees to grow and gain structural value (do other tasks to keep busy throughout the waiting time)
- Create deck-like platform bridging the trees near the top
- Fill the platform with pot soil
- Plant trees in the 4 corners of that platform
- Repeat starting at step #2

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

Quote (JAE)

Seems like for tall buildings they'd have to solve the long-term wood creep issue.

... PLUS ...

Quote (KENAT)

Simplistically I'd think durability related issues given the likely longevity would be one of the biggest concerns along with fire risks as briefly mentioned in the article..

...PLUS ...

Quote (cranky108)

Just because you can, does not mean you should.

All of the above and especially cranky's statement... I see engineering and life-safety protests.

Even if such structure would get approval, the general public DOES, (on occasion) have reasonable common sense, coupled with a built-in, intellectually reasonable fear factor.

(stay with me - I'll come back)

Occupancy related: There is an approximate 100-unit condominium complex in my city of residence, targeted for the upper-middle class resident, built in the lower-middle class neighborhood, overlooking a large convenience-store-gas station with a deserted gas-station across the street. Grand-opening over ten years ago, i believe about a half-dozen units have been occupied. Could this be termed situational or circumstantial occupancy - or lack thereof? It's been in the news that the developer is not financially well-pleased.

(wrapping up)

Likewise, all things considered, if the wood skyscraper were to get built, how many people would be willing to occupy it. Would any of us? Currently... Not I!!! It would be interesting... after my predicted "failure to financially-feasibly-occupy", would another like-structure be built?

Quote (KENAT)

If you can build high performance aircraft largely out of the stuff why not buildings?

Answer: Because, unlike aircraft, in typical structural engineering, our general goal is to prevent the building from flying.

Quote (MintJulep)

Wood timber framed. Work fine, last long time.

Mint, how tall is that structure? Does it compare to the OP?

Quote (msquared48)

I still count five wood over masonry.

I don't understand. I missed something. Please elaborate.

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

KENAT... ONLY if we fasten it with a suitable seat-belt!

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

An all wood seat-belt?

If you really want a large tree house, you might think about the banyan tree.

Actually I have seen some older and nice wood structure and brick covered buildings of several stories tall. By now it has steel added, with epoxy on the bricks to extend it's life. But none the less, wood is a viable building material. But beyond about four stories, I would question the value of using wood.

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

Quote (cranky108)

An all wood seat-belt? ... Actually I have seen some older and nice wood structure and brick covered buildings of several stories tall. By now it has steel added...

I can see Simpson Strong-Tie (cautiously) interested in this prospect... with waivers...

Even the famous Sequoiadendron giganteum (Giant Seqouia) has a reported record height of only 311'. The architect of THAT structure CREATED the limited design values of wood.

Simply dividing steel MOE and Fb by the best manufactured wood values, you'll be in the neighborhood of 14-19:1. Until we accomplish Frank Wrights mile-high-scraper, in steel, which would have a ratio of roughly 17:1 over the worlds highest "natural" wood structure, we should understand that no wood structure should even be safely considered to exceed 1/14 - 1/19 that of the completed tallest steel structure.

Wood is simply NOT intended to go that high!

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

Is the limit on giant Seqouia & Redwood height actually structural or is it related to biological/chemical processes of pulling moisture and nutrients up from the ground etc.?

http://www.livescience.com/14667-tall-trees-grow.h...

Above link suggests its a biological limit, not primarily structural.

So, as much as I'm all for giving the Almighty the appropriate recognition for coming up with the rules we play by, a living tree V wooden building are playing a different game and hence different rules apply.

Plus what manufactured wood values are you using? The aircraft I mentioned used a balsa core between plywood 'skins' - I don't know values off the top of my head etc. but for some applications may be higher than for OSB style materials even in shapes made to optimize I.

Obviously cost effectiveness may be an issue driven by various factors but fundamentally I wonder what could be achieved.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

Himeji Castle.

Best I can determine from various web sources 33 meters over the base of the masonry foundation.

The exterior appearance is 5 stories, but the inside is actually 7.

Originally the main columns were single tree trunks, however various repair and renovation projects over the past 400 or so years have resulted in some splices.

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

Another issue that I don't think has been touched on is the fire safety during construction. Just last week here in BC, a townhouse complex that was under construction caught fire during the night, but because the building wasn't complete, there were no sprinklers. The fire raged so fiercely, that it jumped to a neighboring inhabited complex, and burned it to the point it will likely have to be demolished.

I would hope that fire safety should have to be installed during the framing construction, and not just at the end.

Put one floor up, install fire sprinklers, put next floor up, ...

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

KENAT, i will concede to agree that the limit is related to structural AND (natural) biological/chemical.

Therefore, without the natural bio/chem process, the wood "would" be even LESS effective.

There IS fire-resistant treated wood. I believe the cost is higher. And what about the potential corrosion of fasteners as a result from resistive treatment?

Although fire is an apparent increasing focus in this post, agreeing it must be addressed, considering the remote possibility of its occurrence, referring back to the OP, I consider JAE's thought of long-term creep, in addition to corrosion of fasteners a more necessary concern that is CERTAIN to occur. I see this OP building requiring an overwhelming amount of steel holdowns, tension ties, straps, tie-rods, etc...

Despite the life-safety classification of building type of the structure, structurally speaking, can a structure technically be considered a wood structure if the primary, imperative component is steel?

Although i was not involved in a past multi-level wood-frame hotel project within our firm, I recall the stud walls on the first floor being 2x10 studs necessary to support the resulting compression load. I struggle to see this type of construction as cost-efficient. Now, considering a structure 10-20 times higher, what percentage of floor area would be consumed by the required compression area of the wood?

Tall wood buildings are not my area of expertise...

Quote (KENAT)

...fundamentally I wonder what could be achieved.

ANSWER: Accomplishment and firm or personal recognition. Now... if it would fail, there would certainly be a different perspective of accomplishment and recognition.

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

It is an interesting topic, and I suppose there will be more use of the CLT wood horizontal beams to enhance the "green" advertising for the building. The limitations on compressive stress implies the vertical columns would likely be steel/concrete, so a hybrid construction would likely govern, but the advertising brochures would only show glossy photos of the lamented wood beams, since perception is reality. The developer only needs to finance the construction and then sell the building on its green attributes and he is then free and clear , and the builder can claim bankruptcy if the carpenter ants end its useful function after 10 yrs. There may be some critics of the use of glues or fireproofing additives than of-gas vapors that increase the rate of caner and birth defects for the occupants, but there seems to be effective ways of muting that natural response.

"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

Quote (CheckerHater)


Not exactly high-rise, but wooden structure housing over 3000 people:

More pictures here: http://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadien/index.php?are...

I love how the person sitting in the bleachers is wearing a helmet.

--
JHG

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

Quote (Panther140)


We could make this environmentally friendly by building the main structural components with live trees. It also makes sense from a financial perspective as your building would physically grow.

Here's how it works.
- Plant trees at 4 corners of proposed building location...

I have a gorgeous ash tree on my front lawn. I understand that it is about 35 years old. You could build a nifty tree-house in it. I am about to have it inoculated in the hope that it will not be killed by emerald ash borer beetles. There are no other ash trees in the immediate vicinity, so I think I have a chance.

What happens fifteen years into your project, when some pest shows up that attacks the species of tree you are relying on. It is bad enough when your electricians go on strike.

--
JHG

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

"What happens fifteen years into your project, when some pest shows up that attacks the species of tree you are relying on. It is bad enough when your electricians go on strike."

I'll get a specialized team of spiders and woodpeckers.

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin

RE: Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings

Calling the two upper levels at Himeji floors is being generous, they are each less than 6' clear, maybe 8' floor to floor.
The view from the top is fantastic. If you are ever traveling in Japan (from Osaka to Hiroshima) it is worth stopping in this very nice small city. And walking to the top of the castle.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube

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