×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Contact US

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Use of a company's WPS by contractor
10

Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Use of a company's WPS by contractor

(OP)
Hi guys,

I work for company 'A', and I have seleted our own (company 'A') WPS for our project. Due to time constraints we had to subcontract the production welding to a contractor.

Is it acceptable (per AMSE &/or AWS) to hire a contractor, qualify their welder to company 'A' WPS & use company A WPS for the production weld.

Thanks for your time & help.

Regards
PK

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

2
Yes.  A WPS is not unique to a company but to a procedural sequence.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

2
How can you be sure of their experience with what you're asking them to weld if they don't have qualified WPSs or welders?

Either code says that Manufacturer or Contractor is responsible for qualifying their own WPSs.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

(OP)
DVWE, I understand your point.

Will a new PQR by the contractor suffice the requirement?
Thrid party is also involved for witnessing the production welds & the NDEs
Both Company A & the contractor are in compliance with ISO 9001:2000.

I am not a welding engineer or a metallurgist, just trying to clear up my mind with the issues we have before passing on my views.

Thanks for all your help & time.

Best regards,
PK

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

I'd have to disagree with Ron.  Review QW 103.  
The contractor is responsible to qualify his own procedures and operators.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Raikwar,

Yes, a new PQR will suffice.  For starters, I would give them your WPS as guidance to qualify their own, and I would have someone from your company supervise or witness the qualification.

The additional production welding witnessed by 3rd party and ISO is also good to have.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

The question was whether a Welding Procedure Specification could be used by another company...of course it can.  It is just a written procedure. Whomever decides to use it, must qualify to it, regardless of their company affiliation.

A WPS may be written for the company or by the company...doesn't matter.  Porting a WPS to another company is no different.  The key is qualifying the procedure and the welders to it.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Not to belabor the point but, ging back to the original question;

'Is it acceptable (per AMSE &/or AWS) to hire a contractor, qualify their welder to company 'A' WPS & use company A WPS for the production weld.

Answer -  No
 

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Ron,
As weldtek has pointed out QW 103 clearly states the requirements of ASME IX.
"Each manufacturer or contractor is responsible for the welding done by his organization and shall conduct the tests required in this Section to qualify the welding procedures he uses in the construction of the weldments built under this code,......"

However, it depends on which construction code you are working to as well.
Both ASME B31.3 (QW 328.2.2) and B31.1 (127.5.3)allow the use of one companies WPS by others if certain requirements are met.

Raikwar,
In your case probably the best idea would be to follow as close as possible the variables of Company A's WPS then submit one of the contractors welder qualification test coupons for mechanical testing and have them then write up their own PQR/WPS,
Hope that helps,
Regards,
BB

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

OK...back to the original post.

Let's suppose Company A, instead of hiring Company B as a sub, hires the welder who works for Company B and qualifies him to Company A's procedure.  This is clearly allowable since any company can hire any welder it wants.  Now contractualy insert Company B, with Company A still assuming responsibility (they have the prime contract).  Company B's welder is then qualified to Company A's procedure.  Same result.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

(OP)
I can only wish that the rules/codes are more detailed & specific.... there is always room to debate & thats why we are here.

To cover my rear from all angles, having the contractor qualify PQR/WPS, basing our WPS/PQR as reference looks like a safe option.

Thankyou guys for all your valuable inputs. The thread is still open for inputs...

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Ron,
QW 100.1 clearly states "Any WPS's used by a manufacturer or contractor that will have responsible operational control of production welding shall be a WPS that has been qualified by that manufacturer or contractor in accordance with Article 2,...."
The key words are "responsible operational control"
If company Bs welders are employed by Company A they are under the control of Company A, if the work is sub contracted out to Company B then they are not.
Regards,
BB

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

BB you are correct and I agree; however, control can be contractual.  Also, you are referencing ASME, which is much more restrictive than AWS in this respect.  His question was an "either or", so under AWS he should be fine, though I'm not sure why it's an "either or" since those codes are directed at significantly different segments of welding.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Ron,

AWS D1.1 says the same thing.  Have a look at 4.1.1.1.  It is a less wordy and watered down version of QW-201, but both state "manufacturer or contractor" as having responsibility for qualifying their own WPSs.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Ron does have a point because, if the Contractor acting as recipient of the issued WPS, reviews the WPS, formally accepts it and then adopts it within their quality assurance system, i.e. controls it, what should be the problem?  According to the National Certified Pipe Welding Bureau this would be allowed under ASME B31.1.  In the end, it's down to the contractual relationship and the ability to get the work certificated.

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
 

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

2

Quote:

Is it acceptable (per AMSE &/or AWS) to hire a contractor, qualify their welder to company 'A' WPS & use company A WPS for the production weld.

No, not for ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code work.

Solution - use Standard Welding Procedure Specifications issued by AWS. The SWPS is intended for this type of application.

 

 

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

metengr makes a good point, as long as the welding process, filler metal, and base material are accepted as prequalified materials per the applicable AWS code.  If any of them are not, then a qualification has to happen.  You can find the list in section 3 of D1.1 if that is the code in which work is being performed to.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

metengr,
Have a look at the two clauses I have noted above for ASME B31.3 and 31.1.
If I am interpreting the codes correctly it can be done as long as all the requirements listed are complied with.
ASME VIII Div 1 is quite clear that it cannot be done.
Regards,
BB

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Agreed, for the Piping Codes and industrial welding. My only comment was for ASME B&PV Code, and I normally do not and would not make a practice of using another company's WPS if I have my own welding program.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

(OP)
The welding in question is for subsea manifold piping designed in accordance with API-6A, ASME B 31.3 section K & NEN-3650 (Netherlands Pipe line spec).

As far as I can see, NEN-3650 Annex D does not refer to any of this issue.

Regards,
PK

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Raikwar,

What materials are you welding on?

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

(OP)
Following are the combination of materials for weldments

API 5L Gr. X65 PSL2 to A860 Gr. WPHY65
A694 Gr. F65 to A860 Gr. WPHY65
A694 Gr. F65 to API 5L Gr. X65 PSL2
AISI 8630 -0065S to API 5L Gr. X65 PSL2
Super Duplex 2507 to Super Duplex 2507

All butt-welds.

Regards,
PK

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Wow, that's quite the list.

I'm not familiar with the API and Netherlands codes as you have listed.  So I wouldn't want to give you bad advice there.

Whatever material combinations you are using to build to the ASME B31.3 code, you could use a common WPS as Ballbearing1 has suggested above, assuring it meets all the requirements listed in B31.3.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Raikwar,
If you are working to B31.3 Chapter IX (K) my statements above are not applicable.
Section K specifically prohibits qualification by others.
Regards,
BB

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

I can see why.  Chapter IX - High pressure piping.  No doubt about it.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

B31.3, 328.2.2.  Clear your proposal with the end user, or their representative, by demonstrating that both parties - your company and the subcontractor - have satisfactory control of the situation within both of the QA systems and that both parties are fully amenable to the arrangement.  That way you can override the stated restrictions in the aforementioned clause.  It's all about quality assurance with clear responsibilities, not blindly following a code.  In essence, all you are doing is hiring welders if they have to qualify and execute the work under your QA system.  I don't think any code would stop you hiring welders!

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
 

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

I could not disagree with you more, SJones.

First of all, even B31.3, 328.2.2 gives clear and concise restrictions about the clause.  If you do not meet all the requirements thereof, then there is no doubt that you cannot apply that clause.  Period.

Any code is established such that if you choose to build to it, the rules within must be followed.  They are established for a reason, and I can guarantee you it is not to be "blindly followed".

DVWE: "Why didn't you hydro that vessel?"
SJones: "Because if I did, then I would be blindly following the code.  Trust me, I know I don't need to."

Boom.

 

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

300 (b) 1.  

So then, what is the reason for the prevention of transfer of WPSs?  Quality? Legal liability?  Certainly not engineering.

Why then is there also an 'Interpretations' process if one must blindly follow the Code?

Read my proposal and work out who, ultimately, is the manufacturer, fabricator, or erector.

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
 

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

sjones,
Raikwar has stated he is working to B31.3 (K) which as noted is High Pressure Piping.
Section K328.2.2 Procedure Qualification by Others states " Qualification of welding procedures by others is not permitted."
I don't think any "interpretation" is needed to understand the meaning of that statement.
Regards,
BB

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Again, the point is missed.  I ask once more: who is the 'manufacturer, fabricator, or erector' in the scenario that started the thread?

Come on - open your minds and get out of that box!

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
 

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

So then, what is the reason for the prevention of transfer of WPSs?  Quality? Legal liability?  Certainly not engineering.

Yes, yes, and you are completely wrong about engineering.

Why then is there also an 'Interpretations' process if one must blindly follow the Code?

You don't blindly follow a code.  You either follow the rules, or you don't.  If along the way, you need interpretations made, that can be done too.

Read my proposal and work out who, ultimately, is the manufacturer, fabricator, or erector.

They could be all the same organization, three separate entities, or several (sub-contracted) entities.  Either way, the code says that each is responsible for his own work.  How much clearer can it be?

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

DVWE,
Archie Bunker would say, ' you're throwing pearls in the wine'.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

LMAO!

"Dummy up!"

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Well I've cast my pearls before the swine.  I'll leave it to the jury.   

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
 

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

As I write this there is a case where a contractor is using welders qualified to the owners welding procedure to weld on Al Pressure Vessels. All this is being done under the watchful eye of the owner's QC Group with concurrence of the contractor's and owner's AI.
This is occurring because the equipment is located on the owners site and the welding quality is being controlled and verified by the owner on site.

We have done this for as long as I've been involved with welding and there has never been any question. I agree that in most cases the contractor normally will qualify a procedure to where he is welding solely under his own banner. In fact the above mentioned contractor is in the process of qualifying a procedure to match the one he is now welding under. The owner will conduct the required tests for the contractor. We have done this many times for contractors.

As I've mentioned many times before we do all the QC of any welding on site and any testing of welders. If a contractor's welder hasn't welded on material for us in the previous 6 months he is required to requalify/certify to his ability to weld.
 

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

What do the codes say that the original poster is building to?  That's all I have to say.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

They say "the OWNER of a piping installation shall have overall responsibility for compliance...and for establishing the requirements for design, construction, examination, inspection, and testing".  So, just to take it back round again:  if Company A is the Manufacturer, Fabricator, Erector and the Owner expects the work to be performed under Company A's quality system (highly likely for the Dutch sector of the North Sea) and Company A simply hires Company B's welders and says to the Owner "I'm hiring Company B welders to work under my quality system is that OK?"  The Owner has two options.

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
 

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

SJones,

I believe we are under two different sets of assumptions here, based on your last post and what unclesyd has posted.

There is a difference between hiring sub-contracted welders, which Company A still has responsible operational control of the production welding, and sub-contracting the entire welding operation to Company B, in which case Company B now has responsible operational control of the production welding.  Therefore they (Company B) now is responsible for their own WPSs.

I am under the assumption of the latter.  And I believe you are under the assumption of the former.  In which case I can agree with you on.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

A situation not mentioned is one like my stepson was under while he was working while listed as welder for a rent-a-welder company. The rent-a-welder company had absolutely no idea about requirements of and for welding as he was only a numbered person who said he was a welder. He worked mainly for steel erection companies, but also worked for a shipyard, a petroleum company along with several piping and pressure vessel fabricators.

He stated that only one time was he tested to D1.1 in steel erection business. Most of the time he said that someone may look at his first weld or at times it maybe the tenth weld.

Of the several times he has worked in the shipyard he hasn't been tested.

He was tested while welding for the petroleum company. It was a plate test and all his welding while working there  was welding gas pipe.

He has been tested to different procedures under Sect IX at the three vessel fabricators, all are code shops. He has copies of all tests taken at these shops. He says that two of the shops have a file on him even though he is employed by the rent-a-weld company. The rent-a-welder company keeps no records of any kind related to his welding.

He said that one company company apparently keeps no records on the rent-a-welders. I checked and they only keep time on site records and welding qualifications and NDT records are kelp with the vessel package. As far as he knows his credentials have only been checked one time where welder/welders of record was questioned in a weld involving multiple welders.
Apparently one shop tries to keep him on the projects where there are low NDT requirements. He thinks there is no restrictions in the other two shops on what he welds under his qualifications.

PS:
He recently went to work as "building engineer" for company that recently moved into a large new building and was told to setup a shop that included what he needed for welding as long as the equipment was by a certain manufacturer. He has it all SMAW, TIG, MIG. He was tested by a local NDT company to the Sect IX. The question now is how to maintain his certification and is being discussed with the company' insurance carrier, the NDT company, and a consultant.   

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

sjones,
Not sure what you mean by "reactionaries" ?
We were simply stating opinions and just because those opinions differ from yours does not make us "reactionaries".
I agree with DVWE that there are two scenarios but I was definitely not of the same opinion as you on which scenario is stated here.
"Subcontract the production welding to a contractor" leads me to believe the work will be performed in the subcontractors premises whereas a statement along the lines of "hire subcontract welders to perform the production welding" would lead me to believe it was the scenario you are ascribing to.
Regards,
BB

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

The mechanics of the "subcontract" were not examined and assumptions, such as you have outlined, were immediately made without assessment of the possibilities.  The concept under discussion is really the application of quality systems, if any, and contractual responsibilities.  Instead it turned into a "I've looked at the Code and it says No!" thread, i.e. a reactionary approach.

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
 

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Well, one thing we've learned is that the application of quality systems, and even contractual responsibilities are all part of following the rules of any code.  We must first look at the code to make the "assessment of the possibilities".  I wouldn't call that reactionary, but that's just me.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

I suppose it's just a case of every action has a reactionary!!

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
 

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Cheers to you on that!  thumbsup2

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

ASME allows subcontractors for babrication and the condition of welding still sticks: the sub must have their own procedures.
you can rent a welder but you have to test him/her (WPQ)
ASME B&PV mandates full contrl of welders by fabricator,
mean that welders can belong to another company but managed as hired and fired by the fabricator, if the fab. can not proove that to the AI, the AI can stop the production of those welders, it is getting serious.
genblr

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Hi all

First of all, thanks for all of the replies.

Question:
I work for company 'A', and I have seleted our own (company 'A') WPS for our project. Due to time constraints we had to subcontract the production welding to a contractor.

Is it acceptable (per AMSE &/or AWS) to hire a contractor, qualify their welder to company 'A' WPS & use company A WPS for the production weld.

Let me re-state the question:
I work for company 'A' and we have selected company 'A' WPS # 1 for our project.   Due to excessive internal work load, we need additional help to get the welding on our project completed on time.

Can I hire a sub-contract welder from company 'B' to work under company 'A' QA system to weld uning company 'A' weld procedure?

If yes, what actions or verifications must I do with the sub-contract welder from company 'B' to allow him to weld using company 'A' WPS # 1.

Steve
 

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Yes.  You would just need to have him do a WPQ (welder performance qualification) following company A's WPS.

RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor

Thanks

Steve

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members! Already a Member? Login



News


Close Box

Join Eng-Tips® Today!

Join your peers on the Internet's largest technical engineering professional community.
It's easy to join and it's free.

Here's Why Members Love Eng-Tips Forums:

Register now while it's still free!

Already a member? Close this window and log in.

Join Us             Close