FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
(OP)
Hey Guys,
1. I've been hearing this for along time. If the motor for example has 93FLA nameplated on it but it also has 1.15 service factor does that mean that the 93 x 1.15 = 106.95 available amps and if so why don't they just nameplate it for that?
2. I think it has something to do with the insulation or temperature rise? I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong. Does it mean that you have a Class F rise @ 93 FLA and Class B rise at 106.95 amps.
Now these are things I've heard for many years so I want to get this right once and for all.
3. I've seen other's take the motor nameplate horsepower example a 75HP x 1.15 = 86.25 HP. Is this correct?
4. One last issue. If the motor is rated at 460V and you input lets say 480V. I know more voltage means less amps. But can you get in trouble with the misconception of available amps? Can you overheat at the higher voltage? Or am I just overly concerned?
5. Let's say this motor is sized for a condition that is 73 NBHP or very little wiggle room for system error. Any psi swings could be deteramental.
6. Another issue I have considered is the ambient temperature and the affects the motor overheating possibilities so I will hold off on that until I find out if some answers to the above.
1. I've been hearing this for along time. If the motor for example has 93FLA nameplated on it but it also has 1.15 service factor does that mean that the 93 x 1.15 = 106.95 available amps and if so why don't they just nameplate it for that?
2. I think it has something to do with the insulation or temperature rise? I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong. Does it mean that you have a Class F rise @ 93 FLA and Class B rise at 106.95 amps.
Now these are things I've heard for many years so I want to get this right once and for all.
3. I've seen other's take the motor nameplate horsepower example a 75HP x 1.15 = 86.25 HP. Is this correct?
4. One last issue. If the motor is rated at 460V and you input lets say 480V. I know more voltage means less amps. But can you get in trouble with the misconception of available amps? Can you overheat at the higher voltage? Or am I just overly concerned?
5. Let's say this motor is sized for a condition that is 73 NBHP or very little wiggle room for system error. Any psi swings could be deteramental.
6. Another issue I have considered is the ambient temperature and the affects the motor overheating possibilities so I will hold off on that until I find out if some answers to the above.
Wayne E. Lovison
service-parts@naglepumps.com
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
After reading through MG 1, if you still have questions on specific items, post them on this forum. Otherwise people on this forum could spend hours repeating what is already easily available in MG 1.
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
I'm sorry this request was too petty. I will know better next time.
Wayne E. Lovison
service-parts@naglepumps.com
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
2. I don't believe that the temperature class has anything to do with the nameplate data (sure it does determine max amps,etc) but once the data has been determined then there is no need to modify the nameplate data based on temperature if the motor has the correct insulation class to begin with for the application.
3. This is the correct way, yes. Assuming the 1.15 is labeled SF. NEMA also specifies this SF based on temperature class and motor size. Again, once it is determined then there is no need to modify the nameplate data of a properly spec'd motor.
4. A motor is supposed to operate at +-10% of the nameplate voltage without any problems. If the motor is stamped 480, then it should operate at 432-524 volts. There are curves for derating the life of the motor and the HP based on variation of line voltage. Another misconception about operating a motor above nameplate voltage: the current will go down only slightly but then it will go up just like operating at below nameplate voltage. I can't recall how much above nameplate volts before the current draw goes up but it is only like 5% of nameplate volts. My rule is if your operating at anything other than nameplate volts (usually the case) then the motor is drawing more current to do the same work than if the line voltage was at nameplate volts. So yes you can definately overload a motor by operating at higher than nameplate voltage.
I need to post a short article in the FAQ's that would address some of your questions. Hopefully, I can do that today. Thanks
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
Thread238-7626 posted by electricpete from MG-1: "A motor operating continuously at any service factor greater than 1 will have a reduced life expectancy compared to operating at its rated nameplate horsepower. Insulation life (and) bearing life are reduced by the service factor load."
Also Thread237-5317 Thread237-11535 Thread237-10080
What I’ve learned is that “service factor” loading is permissible only when nameplate voltage, frequency and ambient temperature numbers (note zero voltage imbalance) are met. Anything else is playing games with motor life. Using “SF Amps” to select overload protection is a tactic akin to that of sleazy used-car salesmen.
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
Thread407-9096
Thread238-7626
Thread237-5317
Good discussions above. NEMA is what defines it.
Good comments by Buzz. I wasn't aware there was a separate designation for SFA.
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
You gentlemen will go along way. I appreciate the direction and the time given to me. All your threads
have helped me on a current project.
Once more I thank you all.
Wayne E. Lovison
service-parts@naglepumps.com
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
Motor performance data is based on nominal horsepower rating, not service factor rating.
Back when I was specifying motors, we specified that bhp could not exceed 87% of motor nameplate horsepower for motors with SF of 1.00 and could not exceed 100% of nameplate horsepower for motors with SF of 1.15. For a motor on a VFD, SF had to be 1.15 and bhp could not exceed 87% of nameplate horsepower.
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
Most electronic overloads allow you to change the TC (trip class) or the trip time to define how long it can run in this condition. If the OL setting is to low, then voltage fluctuations will give you nuisance trips. Since voltage variations affect current draw (low V or high V gives high current). If the motor is pulling FLA then use SFA to set the OL setting. If you set it to the FLA then the motor is undersized for the application. People do not realize how much money they may be able to save a company if the motors were sized correctly. This is assuming the utility is monitoring for PF and penalizing you based on this. Also, if the motor were sized properly then the overall power consumed would be less than that of a undersized or oversized motor.
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
Seriously, I think the overload setting is a compromise between keeping the motor running to keep production going, or protecting the motor to prolong its life.
(Best idea is to use an embedded thermistor to monitor actual winding temp if the motor is important to you.)
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
When the effort for rigging and lifting a motor is estimated at $20K, it’s not hard to justify dedicated, very-high grade voltage- AND current-imbalance protection.
Applying IEEE guides and standards starts making {if only statistical} sense after a while. It gets to a point where you notice a pattern and start to realize that there are people [on IEEE working groups] that have formally reflected their experiences on paper, and may just have something. When the rubber meets the road, I don’t think that any motor or overload-relay manufacturer would honestly expect anyone to set an overload relay at anything other than the nameplate full-load current. {Now the actual inverse-time/current curve has been accounted for in setting that overload device based on FLC.} Some vendors are good at making promises about their space-age miracle products, but try to get them to take a phone call at 3:30AM [heck—5:02PM] to arrange for repairs or a replacement. They can be really good at forgotten, empty promises they made 3 months ago while giving you a nifty inkpen with their 9-to-5 phone number, and now, do little but plenty of finger pointing. Not all the time, but for many cases the cost of a motor and the energy to feed it gets dwarfed by loss of production and excessive use of repair budgets. Production managers like to scream a lot when their machinery and manpower is not usable on a minute-by-minute basis to meet some contrived projections on a pimple-faced junior assistant vice president’s computer display somewhere across the country. You’ve seen ‘em—the little spoogeheaded twits with their pathetic, “What have you done for me today?” demeanor.
Reliability aside, I don’t think that any published efficiency calculations are based on anything but a motor loaded to 100.0%; not 115%; not even 105%.
RE: FLA Nameplates vr's 1.15 SF - Whose right?
Another factor that would need to be considered is that if the motor is considered a minor cost, then if it fails every six months, then how much lost production in downtime and installation/removal costs will it take to pay for the downtime/installation/removal costs that we were originally trying to avoid? (hope that came out right)
Bottom line: there is no sure fire way to say set OL at FLA or SFA. Many applications would never run for more than a few minutes without tripping. The marketing for motor protection is just for that, motor protection. Not application protection. But sometimes this is more important than the motor. On the other hand, sometimes the motor is more important.