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Any low carbone steel dealer in USA
2

Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

(OP)
I want to use AISI 1010 for electromagnetic purpose. However, I couldn't find any dealer and shop selling the AISI 1010 rod-type steel in USA.

If anyone knows dealers, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

For plain carbon steels (such as AISI 1010), it is very difficult finding anything other than AISI 1018 (also called CRS for Cold Rolled Steel).  There aren't as many vendors making steel anymore and the remaining ones seem to focus only on a few alloys.

One can purchase specific grades from Carpenter, but the minimum lot sizes are enormous.

Your best alternative is to use 1018 steel and have it annealed.  It only has a bit more carbon than 1010, is much more available and will have nearly equal magnetic properties.

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

(OP)
How much temperature should be used for annealing AISI 1018?

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

There is a lot of 1002 ELI made for appliance housings, but as far as I know it is all made as sheet, no bar.

Use 1018 and give the parts an extended hydrogen anneal.  You can actually remove C that way.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Corrosion never sleeps, but it can be managed.
http://www.trenttube.com/Trent/tech_form.htm

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

(OP)
What about using Silicon Steel instead of AISI 1010 or 1018?

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

There is a lot of A36 available. Find some with certs that show low carbon. What I've checked has been fine. I know there is a risk for some other reason it won't be. But I'm allowing it's use. Not much other choice.

Have you considered higher carbon steels and it's effects on your circuit. It may not be a problem.

Maybe you need to redesign your circuit for 1020 or higher carbon steel.

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

(OP)
In my case, there is size and cost limitation. So I need to use higher permeability and not expensive materials so as to maximize the magnetic density.

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

avacadozo: You asked about silicon steel.  It has a lower saturation flux density than plain low carbon steel.  However, silicon steel does have advantages if your electromagnet is going to operate in AC mode.

So, the question becomes: What do you intend for your electromagnet to do?  Please describe your application in a bit more detail.

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

(OP)
My operation mode is in DC. However, depending on situation, DC signal should be changed frequently.

I though AISI 1010. However, AISI 1010 is not avaible to me because I couldn't find any vendor to sell rod-type AISI 1010. So I need to think a subsitution for AISI 1010.

I heard that silicon steel has almost same permeability and saturation density as pure steel. Is that wrong?

If correct, can somebody tell me any vendor to sell silicon steel?

Anyway, thanks to all reply for my question.

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

If you cannot consider higher carbon steels then you don't want to consider silicon steels or pure iron. There would be higher losses with these then with 1020 steel.

What is the highest flux density in your circuit? As MagMike said we could help more with more info.

Changing a DC signal frequently is probably only an issue when begins to look like an AC signal. Unless the time constant is an issue.

These people can help if you do a google search for
Samuel Specialty Metals

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

(OP)
My application is close to a Solenoid with air gap. The highest flux density in my circuit is about 2.0 Tesla. That takes place in guided material and I need about 0.6-0.7 Tesla in air gap.

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

If your flux path is short where you have 2T then losses in higher carbon steel will not be significantly greater.

.6-.7T in an small air gap is relatively easy to obtain. But again to help you more we need details. And perhaps you cannot release them.

Have you determined the difference in losses with different steels. Usually we are talking about single digit percentage point changes when going from 1010 to 1020 to 1028 to 1035 steel. Although it does add up.

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

Hi everyone,
Newbie question here; MJR2 said in one response that there would be more losses using pure iron than 1020 steel, why is that?
thanks
-Todd

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

Todd,
What I am considering is the magnetic permeability or the saturation characteristics. Most iron will saturate at lower values than say 1020 carbon steel. Therefore greater ampturns will be required of your coil for the same result.

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

Well I don't mean to stray from the original topic of this thread, but I thought that iron had higher saturation than any carbon steel. Isn't that why pure iron is often used for the pole pieces? I guess I need to find some good charts with the curves shown for these materials, but I'd still be interested to hear what you have to say.
-Todd

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

The charts I use provide the results as suggested.

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

MJR2,
I'd be interested in seeing the charts that you use.  Do they provide the chemical composition of the iron, compared with 1020?  How about cold-working?

The only way I can envision iron (I'm assuming pure iron) having higher losses than 1020 is for the iron to be heavily cold-worked, or the 1020 to be annealed.  Annealed iron should have less losses than annealed 1020.

The carbon and manganese content in 10XX series steels have significant effects in impeding the magnetization process.  Assuming the iron is "pure", there will be less to hinder the magnetization and thus the losses should be lower.

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

Okay. Well we are off track but I'll try to finish.

There are a lot of references. One might be the ASM Metals Handbook. And I see that you are right. Except what I was really considering was cast iron and steel. Pure iron annealed is better than than low carbon rolled steels. In any case commercially the low carbon rolled (hot and cold)steels is where I design. I see the comments about annealing and will need to keep that in my back pocket.

As the thread started it is getting harder to get good low carbon steels. A few years ago 1018 and lower was common. We slipped to 1020 and now 1022. Since all of these have a range of properties on any given day you might not be able to measure a difference in your completed magnetic assembly. Certs are encouraged before I allow lower specs.

If you wonder why steel is hard to get one only has to see the construction in China to really understand. Absolutely incredible.

Plus you have so many other things which can make your design go south. We drilled into a 2" thick plate of steel 3/4" and struck oil (transformer oil filled magnet). The plate was porous. I have to imagine it adversly effected the measured field. But the inspection results could not suggest any problem. If it had not come up to the design field strength how would I have ever known why. And yes I know there are inspection techniques for steel that would reveal this. But I like to think I design practical cost efficent magnetic devices and because of that make some sweeping assumptions. And most of the time it works.

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

A star for MJR2 for clearing things up and especially for relating the story about the porous plate of steel.  I always try to leave a bit of a "cushion" in my magnet designs. Your post just encouraged me to use a bigger cushion when designing with larger plates of steel.

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

(OP)
I learn from this forum the annealing will improve the magnetic property of the carbon steel. So I want to do that.

My question is that when is proper annealing time and that what temperature is set for annealing? In my case, I will machine the core part. To better magnetic performance, after machining the core part, I shoud have it annealed? And what is proper setting temperature for annealing?

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

Hello avocadozo,

My apologies for overlooking your original request for details on annealing.

I would recommend calling for a dry hydrogen anneal (as mentioned by EdStainless) at 1600 degF for a minimum of one hour at temperature.

One thing to keep in mind, the annealing can distort the part somewhat, enough to ruin any tight tolerances.  I'd suggest having the annealing done before machining any tight tolerance features onto the part.

Good luck!

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

So the annealing can distort the part, but can the machining afterward heat the part and partially destroy the effects of the annealing?

-Todd

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

The machining afterwards will only degrade (not destroy) the magnetism in the regions where the machining was done.  The bulk material will remain in the annealed condition.  Hopefully the only machining necessary after annealing will be tapping a few holes or other minor features.

RE: Any low carbone steel dealer in USA

Hello Avocadozo,

I read your post.  This is the first time that I have used eng-tips.  My company has been in business for 20+ years selling Low carbon (c1002) strip & Rod for electromagnetic applications. I am sure I can help you! We stock a variety of sizes .250 - 6.0" dia.

Lloyd- lloyd@cmispecialty.com

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