Compositepro
Chemical
I'm not a woman, and this topic is not of great interest to me, but this blog was quite interesting:
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Women in Engineering. 61
- Thread starter Compositepro
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- #81
SLTA, I think a lot of people are naive to how blatantly sexist or racist some people are. I've dealt with a lot of garbage at times because I was female, but I have also seen the same things against people from other countries, where someone would flat out tell me that they wouldn't work with a person because they were of a certain ethnicity. With that said, the VAST majority of people that I have worked with weren't like that, and a few difficult people were not enough to chase me away from something that I love doing.
I just saw this youtube video from an engineer whose channel is "Smart Every Day" and it was a pretty strong metaphor for mental tunnel vision and ingrained bias, I believe.
In it, the host speaks of being given a modified bicycle with the handlebars geared so that the steering is directly opposite tradition. He speaks of how he was amazed how much of his actions and reactions were geared entirely by ingrained behavior through repetition over time, and how incredibly difficult it was to modify that behavior.
I thought it was interesting and a bit poignant as I look back on instances of mistakes in my past where this type of bias led me to shameful behavior without even realizing I was doing it at the time.
_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5
In it, the host speaks of being given a modified bicycle with the handlebars geared so that the steering is directly opposite tradition. He speaks of how he was amazed how much of his actions and reactions were geared entirely by ingrained behavior through repetition over time, and how incredibly difficult it was to modify that behavior.
I thought it was interesting and a bit poignant as I look back on instances of mistakes in my past where this type of bias led me to shameful behavior without even realizing I was doing it at the time.
_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5
Panther140
Civil/Environmental
Well obviously if you make a class specifically for females, tailor all of the coursework to learning styles more prevalent in females, and then select which females go to this female-specific course you are going to get better results for them.
Females get the majority of college degrees now and BOYS are the ones having trouble in schools from little on.
Why are we talking about tailoring school to cater to girls more, when boys are the ones struggling more than they are?
"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
Females get the majority of college degrees now and BOYS are the ones having trouble in schools from little on.
Why are we talking about tailoring school to cater to girls more, when boys are the ones struggling more than they are?
"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
We're talking about STEM specifically, not school in general here. And despite the more women graduating from college, men are still getting the higher salaries, aren't they?
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To compare to a running race: Because when you're in the lead, or winning, as we are as men, you don't complain about someone trying to close the gap by bringing the second, third, fourth runners ahead in the game. We're not in competition. We're on the same team.
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NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5
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moltenmetal
Chemical
STEM in general is oversupplied, as is engineering in particular, so there's no "STEM crisis" to concern ourselves with, anywhere other than in the heads of certain people who benefit from the propagation of that myth:
We need girls to not close off their options too soon, which is an all-too-common event even now. That's a fundamental justice issue- we don't want true human potential wasted, irrespective of which sex. The challenge that I see going forward is that our ability to educate has outstripped the market demand for employment in the associated field. Some human potential is going to be "wasted" as a result, because people have to eat- not everybody gets to pursue their highest aspirations in the form of a career. I know lots of fine artists, musicians, historians, linguistic scholars etc. who are doing day jobs to keep body and soul together- so it has always been- it is just a shame to see so many potential engineers and scientists amongst them now.
Education should try harder to engender the wonder which is common in all kids, rather than snuffing it out entirely which seems to be the much more common result. Regrettably, elementary education as currently practice can be quite effective at snuffing out wonder in both boys and girls.
As to making working conditions better for female engineers- I recommend the same thing that will improve the working conditions for male engineers: stop cranking out so many of them that the supply outstrips the market demand by a factor of more than 3 (which is the current situation here in Canada). The rest of it is of secondary importance, though still worthy of effort- particularly on the part of employers- to find and reduce the systematic biases where they persist. But a strict numeric equality amongst the sexes in this profession isn't something I think we need to aspire to.
We need girls to not close off their options too soon, which is an all-too-common event even now. That's a fundamental justice issue- we don't want true human potential wasted, irrespective of which sex. The challenge that I see going forward is that our ability to educate has outstripped the market demand for employment in the associated field. Some human potential is going to be "wasted" as a result, because people have to eat- not everybody gets to pursue their highest aspirations in the form of a career. I know lots of fine artists, musicians, historians, linguistic scholars etc. who are doing day jobs to keep body and soul together- so it has always been- it is just a shame to see so many potential engineers and scientists amongst them now.
Education should try harder to engender the wonder which is common in all kids, rather than snuffing it out entirely which seems to be the much more common result. Regrettably, elementary education as currently practice can be quite effective at snuffing out wonder in both boys and girls.
As to making working conditions better for female engineers- I recommend the same thing that will improve the working conditions for male engineers: stop cranking out so many of them that the supply outstrips the market demand by a factor of more than 3 (which is the current situation here in Canada). The rest of it is of secondary importance, though still worthy of effort- particularly on the part of employers- to find and reduce the systematic biases where they persist. But a strict numeric equality amongst the sexes in this profession isn't something I think we need to aspire to.
STEM in general is oversupplied, as is engineering in particular... in some localities, and in some disciplines. It's a generalisation which doesn't apply universally. In the UK we struggle to recruit good power engineers because there simply aren't all that many of them around, and the companies who do have them try hard to hang on to them. The international power engineering job market doesn't seem much different based on the number of approaches I'm getting via LinkedIn and direct via email. Rotating plant engineers seem to be in a similar position. Long may it continue. 
I think Moltenmetal's point is more about over supply of students/grads.
Certainly once you get up to needing certain amount of experience in certain specialize fields etc. then there is often a shortage not over supply. Arguably much of this shortage is Industries own fault but that's another topic - not closely related to the low proportion of women in engineering.
Certainly once you get up to needing certain amount of experience in certain specialize fields etc. then there is often a shortage not over supply. Arguably much of this shortage is Industries own fault but that's another topic - not closely related to the low proportion of women in engineering.
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moltenmetal
Chemical
ScottyUK, there will always be a shortage of the fully trained people that weren't hired as fresh grads ten plus years ago. That doesn't help the current crop of fresh grads a mote.
Similarly, there SHOULD be a shortage of people in such "short supply", who are willing to work for an "average" engineering salary- or willing to work in a remote location without a steep salary premium etc.
If that's the case for you, then enjoy it- and make SURE for all our collective benefit, you profit thoroughly from it!
The salary survey data here puts the lie to the notion that there's any persistent shortage that is driving up the price of labour, i.e. the only kind of shortage that should trouble a business. That survey data shows engineering salary growth which is not out-stripping either economic growth or the cost of living. And since the survey data is sorted by years of experience, we have sufficient data to say that we're not seeing a sudden spike in the salaries of "experienced" engineers in general here. So your situation is the exception that proves the rule.
KENAT is right: my point was in relation to the hiring and retention of female engineers. Make a REAL labour shortage and they will both come, and stay. In an oversupplied marketplace in general terms, which is what we certainly have here and now, I'd be troubled if more women were staying than men- perhaps in a real practical sense, the women have more brains than the men do in that regard.
Similarly, there SHOULD be a shortage of people in such "short supply", who are willing to work for an "average" engineering salary- or willing to work in a remote location without a steep salary premium etc.
If that's the case for you, then enjoy it- and make SURE for all our collective benefit, you profit thoroughly from it!
The salary survey data here puts the lie to the notion that there's any persistent shortage that is driving up the price of labour, i.e. the only kind of shortage that should trouble a business. That survey data shows engineering salary growth which is not out-stripping either economic growth or the cost of living. And since the survey data is sorted by years of experience, we have sufficient data to say that we're not seeing a sudden spike in the salaries of "experienced" engineers in general here. So your situation is the exception that proves the rule.
KENAT is right: my point was in relation to the hiring and retention of female engineers. Make a REAL labour shortage and they will both come, and stay. In an oversupplied marketplace in general terms, which is what we certainly have here and now, I'd be troubled if more women were staying than men- perhaps in a real practical sense, the women have more brains than the men do in that regard.
Ok, I misread your opening sentence as meaning that STEM is oversupplied, not that there are too many raw graduates in STEM subjects for the opportunities available. FWIW, in the UK the employment market is considerably better for a 2015 grad than it was for a late 80's / early 90's grad, and that's reflected in both starting salaries and the number of opportunities.
I'll shut up now, I didn't intend to drag this off into the weeds.
I'll shut up now, I didn't intend to drag this off into the weeds.
Women are discriminated against by men in the workplace. I've lived long enough now to experience discrimination from men old enough to be my father and men young enough to be my son.
Dr. George Simon, a psychologist, has changed my mind forever about human behavior. Forever.
Ultimately, employers do not hire reproductive systems but employees they believe capable of doing the job and providing enough ROI to pay the employee as well as themselves.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
Dr. George Simon, a psychologist, has changed my mind forever about human behavior. Forever.
Ultimately, employers do not hire reproductive systems but employees they believe capable of doing the job and providing enough ROI to pay the employee as well as themselves.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
@BUGGAR
Reminds me of a recent/current social media phenom with a hashtag " #ILookLikeAnEngineer " with female engineers posting photos of themselves.
Ref:
_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5
Reminds me of a recent/current social media phenom with a hashtag " #ILookLikeAnEngineer " with female engineers posting photos of themselves.
Ref:
_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5
The back story to the #ILookLikeAnEngineer is vaguely interesting.
Essentially a company did some bill boards featuring some of their employees. One of them was a young female engineer who would probably be considered attractive by Western societal norms (that's my PC attempt at saying she was a hottie). This poster got a lot of feedback about must be a model, not realistic...
I fell into the same trap and had to admonish myself accordingly.
Essentially a company did some bill boards featuring some of their employees. One of them was a young female engineer who would probably be considered attractive by Western societal norms (that's my PC attempt at saying she was a hottie). This poster got a lot of feedback about must be a model, not realistic...
I fell into the same trap and had to admonish myself accordingly.
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So, good news, bad news sort of thing. Bad news that there are snarks that complete idiots with notions of correlations between smarts and looks. Good news is that there are people like Isis Anchalee, who got some well deserved kudos on NPR this morning and demonstrates that smarts, looks, and fearlessness do go together.
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In fairness though, peoples preconceptions of what engineers look like aren't confined to discriminating against attractive women.
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Oh, sure; I still keep a pair of horn-rimmed glasses encrusted with dandruff and a holey t-shirt for those occasions ;-)
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- #99
tstructural
Structural
Germane to my story so I'll tell you that I'm a woman. When I told my mom I was going to be an engineer she was totally shocked. She said, "but you can't - you are pretty and you shower and you know how to dress". Wow talk about offensive to us all. Of course she wasn't trying to be offensive she was just shocked and that was the first thing that popped into her head. That was more than 20 years ago but I suspect it's still a prevalent idea in a lot of people's minds.
And I agree it's a stereotype for both men and women that we should be ugly, fail to shower and wear plaid, stripes and polka dots all in one outfit.
And I agree it's a stereotype for both men and women that we should be ugly, fail to shower and wear plaid, stripes and polka dots all in one outfit.
tstructural, no it's not just your mom 20 years ago.
My wife worked in the unemployment office in our small town until recently, there is a large military R&D base in town so a lot of engineering hiring & firing etc.
Anyway, the consensus of her and her colleagues was about the same as your mum.
In fact her friends and colleagues often make comments about me (male) not being 'like other engineers' and I'm far from being Ashton Kutcher.
My wife worked in the unemployment office in our small town until recently, there is a large military R&D base in town so a lot of engineering hiring & firing etc.
Anyway, the consensus of her and her colleagues was about the same as your mum.
In fact her friends and colleagues often make comments about me (male) not being 'like other engineers' and I'm far from being Ashton Kutcher.
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