Isn't that the logic behind H1B visas?
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Women Engineers.... 44
- Thread starter jmw
- Start date
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Patgeotech
Geotechnical
- Jan 20, 2003
- 72
My graduating civil engineering class comprised of about 40% female engineers - of that 40%, I know of only 2 that stuck to civil engineering. The rest departed to married life and the financial world.
Now 12 years later with two daughters, I understand that nothing beats married life and coming home to your kids after a hard days work - far better than a cold, dark gloomy flat and a pet cat.
And secondly I think the females that left for the financial world knew something I did not know at the time - the pay was going to be minimal in civil engineering! I have certainly learnt some valuable lessons from females through the years.
Yes, I have finally accepted that I am outnumbered (and will remain outnumberd) in my household! But I will probably learn a few new tricks along the way.
Now 12 years later with two daughters, I understand that nothing beats married life and coming home to your kids after a hard days work - far better than a cold, dark gloomy flat and a pet cat.
And secondly I think the females that left for the financial world knew something I did not know at the time - the pay was going to be minimal in civil engineering! I have certainly learnt some valuable lessons from females through the years.
Yes, I have finally accepted that I am outnumbered (and will remain outnumberd) in my household! But I will probably learn a few new tricks along the way.
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2
- #43
I contemplate writing about my experiences in Corporate America as a female engineer. It's been most enlightening and challenging, politically. I am not a politician. For me, the truth is what one really needs to make good decisions.
I've worked with male engineers about 10 years my junior, who could not stand working with female engineers.
One male ME accused a female ChemE near his age of being clueless and a lousy engineer. I never understood why he complained about her to me. I found her to be quite intelligent and focused on her work. She was positive in outlook and attitude thus a delight to talk with. She was well grounded. She was blowing the doors off a dual master's program at the local university. The profs raved about her academic performance. About a year later, I had to work with him to complete the project the ChemE began. She followed her husband to another job two states away. I learned who was really clueless.
Research indicates women are leaving Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics, STEM, for other jobs. Dr. Jenny Hunt found it is engineering, primarily, that women are leaving for other jobs. I understand why as I almost left it.
And, for the men who believe working long hours and living months away from home does not impact them, think again. Most of the male engineers I worked with were about 20-25 years my senior. Some openly discussed the family problems they caused by not being home to help raise their children.
Recently, I discussed some of my experiences with a female physician about 10-15 years my senior. She experienced discrimination upon entering medicine in her youth because not many women were physicians then. It has gotten much better over her lifetime because the female population increased. She never experienced what I have as an engineer or even came close to that kind of terrible treatment. The interesting aspect for me in this is that I told her the least negative experiences to deliberately not be a turn off. After all, who wants to talk to a negative, whiny woman on vacation?
Because of my experiences, I have discouraged young women from entering engineering and some young men.
I've worked with male engineers about 10 years my junior, who could not stand working with female engineers.
One male ME accused a female ChemE near his age of being clueless and a lousy engineer. I never understood why he complained about her to me. I found her to be quite intelligent and focused on her work. She was positive in outlook and attitude thus a delight to talk with. She was well grounded. She was blowing the doors off a dual master's program at the local university. The profs raved about her academic performance. About a year later, I had to work with him to complete the project the ChemE began. She followed her husband to another job two states away. I learned who was really clueless.
Research indicates women are leaving Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics, STEM, for other jobs. Dr. Jenny Hunt found it is engineering, primarily, that women are leaving for other jobs. I understand why as I almost left it.
And, for the men who believe working long hours and living months away from home does not impact them, think again. Most of the male engineers I worked with were about 20-25 years my senior. Some openly discussed the family problems they caused by not being home to help raise their children.
Recently, I discussed some of my experiences with a female physician about 10-15 years my senior. She experienced discrimination upon entering medicine in her youth because not many women were physicians then. It has gotten much better over her lifetime because the female population increased. She never experienced what I have as an engineer or even came close to that kind of terrible treatment. The interesting aspect for me in this is that I told her the least negative experiences to deliberately not be a turn off. After all, who wants to talk to a negative, whiny woman on vacation?
Because of my experiences, I have discouraged young women from entering engineering and some young men.
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2
- #44
I am a female engineer in the UK and have been since I left school in 1998, I was also a college lecturer teaching Engineering subjects for 2 years. I have never personally experienced any kind of discrimination regarding my gender and I dont know any other female engineers who have either. Reading some of the posts on here has shocked me as I wasnt aware that there were still so many people out there who think that women cannot be as good as male as Engineers, I thought that only very narrow minded and old fashioned thinkers had that opinion and those people were few and far between, now i'm wondering what people are saying about me behind my back! (Would a male engnieer get that paranoid...probably not!).
As for the comments made about women being better at the "emotional" aspects and men being better at the "technical" aspects, I think that is quite offensive - people have different strengths and weaknesses regardless of gender, its what makes us all different! Some female Engnieers might not be very good at what they do just in the same way that male engineers might not be very good at what they do.
Engineering is a male oriented profession because it just is, just like nursing is a female oriented profession, its nothing to do with sexism. I dont see any problem with trying to encourage women into engineering in the same way that i dont see any problem encouraging anyone into engineering.
The main problem in my opinion (certainly in the UK) is that non-engineers don't really know what engineering is all about, the term Engineer is used so loosely these days that even someone who comes round to your house to install a freeview box is classed as an engineer, so there is a lot of confusion as to what engineers do. But I suppose thats a separate thread altogether!
Lisa
As for the comments made about women being better at the "emotional" aspects and men being better at the "technical" aspects, I think that is quite offensive - people have different strengths and weaknesses regardless of gender, its what makes us all different! Some female Engnieers might not be very good at what they do just in the same way that male engineers might not be very good at what they do.
Engineering is a male oriented profession because it just is, just like nursing is a female oriented profession, its nothing to do with sexism. I dont see any problem with trying to encourage women into engineering in the same way that i dont see any problem encouraging anyone into engineering.
The main problem in my opinion (certainly in the UK) is that non-engineers don't really know what engineering is all about, the term Engineer is used so loosely these days that even someone who comes round to your house to install a freeview box is classed as an engineer, so there is a lot of confusion as to what engineers do. But I suppose thats a separate thread altogether!
Lisa
A separate thread that's been done do death several times Lisa!;-)
Your reply has got me thinking though, maybe it's worse with geography. I graduated a year after Lisa back in the UK & It didn't seem much of an issue.
On one occasion back in the UK I had a female engineer from a customer who was slightly younger than me ask me if my boss had a problem with her because she was female. Now this guy was a bit old fashioned and not particularly PC, so it was a reasonable question, however, from what I saw his behavior was fairly consistent with almost everybody - especially youngsters. So I tried to reassure her that it probably wasn't anything to do with her being female but, maybe I was missing something.
However, some of the other anecdotes above make it sound like maybe it's more prevalent still some places.
Your reply has got me thinking though, maybe it's worse with geography. I graduated a year after Lisa back in the UK & It didn't seem much of an issue.
On one occasion back in the UK I had a female engineer from a customer who was slightly younger than me ask me if my boss had a problem with her because she was female. Now this guy was a bit old fashioned and not particularly PC, so it was a reasonable question, however, from what I saw his behavior was fairly consistent with almost everybody - especially youngsters. So I tried to reassure her that it probably wasn't anything to do with her being female but, maybe I was missing something.
However, some of the other anecdotes above make it sound like maybe it's more prevalent still some places.
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Not sure quite how it relates but from elsewhere:
(Warning, story includes a photo of a scantily clad Female Engineer)
(Warning, story includes a photo of a scantily clad Female Engineer)
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On a personal level, I have no problem with the photograph. Women can be engineers and feminine. I believe most female engineers are simultaneously engineers and feminine. And we are in spite of Corporate America's desire to homogenize us so that we are indistinguishable from men.
On a professional level, if a female engineer wants to be taken seriously, by most men and women in Corporate America, the clothes have to stay on and they can't be too skimpy. Old fashioned? Perhaps. But that is human nature.
Female engineers older than me can get quite resentful about younger women not understanding the battle they fought to be considered equal in ability to male engineers. We've had those conversations and their attitudes really surprised me as a young engineer. For the record, I am 51 so those older than me are in their 60's now. You can imagine the generation gap of knowledge.
I've listened to male engineers a lot over the years and the sexier women try to be in the workplace, the less respect they get as an engineer. Not all men are like that but a lot of them are.
Older women who aren't engineers dislike younger women using their sexuality to advance their positions in Corporate America. They, too, have endured some hardships to "get ahead" and be accepted in a male dominated company. They've had their struggles getting respect from men for simply being women. I've listened to them, too.
I'll admit that I am not particularly prudish but some young women are quite forward with promoting themselves sexually in the workplace. Then they have the audacity to complain about their plight at work. I had to laugh heartily over that one. If you don't want to have a lot of men hitting on you at work and talking about you behind your back and/or to your face, don't wear mini-skirts and blouses so low and loose your huge bosom falls out to work. Wear them to the meat market, i.e., the local bar.
One such young woman learned a lot of her problems were being discussed in the office. I was one she had confided in. Knowing the delicacy of her situation and wanting her to succeed, I kept my mouth shut. She also confided in at least two of the men at work. There was possibly a third. During a conversation with me, she eliminated all the men as being gossips, which left me. She must have thought I wouldn't get her point quickly but I did. It was very offensive. I knew I had not talked. I later learned from some of the other men in the office that both of the men had talked. It was all quite hilarious but very sad for her.
On a professional level, if a female engineer wants to be taken seriously, by most men and women in Corporate America, the clothes have to stay on and they can't be too skimpy. Old fashioned? Perhaps. But that is human nature.
Female engineers older than me can get quite resentful about younger women not understanding the battle they fought to be considered equal in ability to male engineers. We've had those conversations and their attitudes really surprised me as a young engineer. For the record, I am 51 so those older than me are in their 60's now. You can imagine the generation gap of knowledge.
I've listened to male engineers a lot over the years and the sexier women try to be in the workplace, the less respect they get as an engineer. Not all men are like that but a lot of them are.
Older women who aren't engineers dislike younger women using their sexuality to advance their positions in Corporate America. They, too, have endured some hardships to "get ahead" and be accepted in a male dominated company. They've had their struggles getting respect from men for simply being women. I've listened to them, too.
I'll admit that I am not particularly prudish but some young women are quite forward with promoting themselves sexually in the workplace. Then they have the audacity to complain about their plight at work. I had to laugh heartily over that one. If you don't want to have a lot of men hitting on you at work and talking about you behind your back and/or to your face, don't wear mini-skirts and blouses so low and loose your huge bosom falls out to work. Wear them to the meat market, i.e., the local bar.
One such young woman learned a lot of her problems were being discussed in the office. I was one she had confided in. Knowing the delicacy of her situation and wanting her to succeed, I kept my mouth shut. She also confided in at least two of the men at work. There was possibly a third. During a conversation with me, she eliminated all the men as being gossips, which left me. She must have thought I wouldn't get her point quickly but I did. It was very offensive. I knew I had not talked. I later learned from some of the other men in the office that both of the men had talked. It was all quite hilarious but very sad for her.
I think it would be good if there was a "Female Engineers" forum on here, I always think its nice to hear other womens viewpoints on things. I think it can be a bit tough sometimes being in a predominantly male environment and I think a lot of us girls miss having a bit of female company from time to time when at work...or is it just me?
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
Assuming 'a "Female Engineers" forum" existed, would you object to the existence of a complementary "Male Engineers" forum?
Or would that be 'sexist'?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Or would that be 'sexist'?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Lisa, while not a 'female Engineers' forum, there are a couple of forums over in corporate survival that might be suitable for the occasional thread relating to the issues personages of the female persuasion may face in male dominated Engineering.
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Mike, men can do anything their little ol' hearts desire. Women have unnecessarily given some men a difficult time. Some men deserve difficulties from women but those are few. Most men I have worked with were jewels. But those few......real stinkers they were.
Lisa247, I have missed female companionship in the workplace. It isn't just you. As much as I love men, it's nice to have women to share with, too.
Lisa247, I have missed female companionship in the workplace. It isn't just you. As much as I love men, it's nice to have women to share with, too.
- Thread starter
- #53
You can always sponsor an invitation-only forum yourself e.g. like "Pat's Pub" that you see on the home page, ("The Powder Room?") You can then invite who you like or vet those that apply to join....
Not sure that PC rules can reach into cyberspace and frown on a forum that discriminates against men.... but they all do in some way or another.
I can't see a problem.
If Eng-Tips refused to accept women, then there would be an issue.
But I'd say it's like tennis. So long as you have a women's tournament as well as a men's tournament and a mixed, everyone is happy because everyone gets to play tennis.
So if there is a women only forum, so what? Good luck to the ladies.
There should be no problem setting up a men only forum too but I can't see the need.
The whole point of this thread is that engineering (and many other professions) behave like they are men only anyway and where the girls have to be just like "one of the boys" and accept lewd comments and innuendo etc. to get along. Yuk.
Except, of course, that Eng-Tips is rather more egalitarian than the real world workplace (though not with out occasional bursts of chauvinism - yes, guilty as charged).![[wink]](/data/assets/smilies/wink.gif "[wink] [wink]")
JMW
Not sure that PC rules can reach into cyberspace and frown on a forum that discriminates against men.... but they all do in some way or another.
I can't see a problem.
If Eng-Tips refused to accept women, then there would be an issue.
But I'd say it's like tennis. So long as you have a women's tournament as well as a men's tournament and a mixed, everyone is happy because everyone gets to play tennis.
So if there is a women only forum, so what? Good luck to the ladies.
There should be no problem setting up a men only forum too but I can't see the need.
The whole point of this thread is that engineering (and many other professions) behave like they are men only anyway and where the girls have to be just like "one of the boys" and accept lewd comments and innuendo etc. to get along. Yuk.
Except, of course, that Eng-Tips is rather more egalitarian than the real world workplace (though not with out occasional bursts of chauvinism - yes, guilty as charged).
JMW
I suppose a women only forum could be seen as discriminatory against men if was just a "women only" forum for discussing Engnieering/handbag/knitting related topics. What I was talking about was a forum where women could chat specifically about things that are related to being a woman in a predominantly male environment. I would still use all of the other forums for asking/reading technical questions. I'm not going to set one up anyway as I wouldn't have a clue where to start, it was just an idea really! My first thread would probably be entitled "should you say something if someone talks to your chest rather than your face?", if a man wants to respond to this then he can do, I wasn't thinking of banning all men from replying 
Lisa
Lisa
Lisa, that would probably be ideal fodder for one of the 2 forums in corporate survival.
There has been the odd controversy before about some female posters being perceived as acting like damsels in distress and some of the male posters that reply acting like knights in shining armor but hopefully with some careful wording of the OP that could be avoided.
As to the lewd comments JMW, hey I had to put up with them from my first supervisor so why shouldn't the ladies too;-).
There has been the odd controversy before about some female posters being perceived as acting like damsels in distress and some of the male posters that reply acting like knights in shining armor but hopefully with some careful wording of the OP that could be avoided.
As to the lewd comments JMW, hey I had to put up with them from my first supervisor so why shouldn't the ladies too;-).
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Lisa247, I haven't figured out how to handle men that talk to the chest either. Some don't get it even when they are told brutally honestly about what they are doing. One such man didn't get it even after being fired for inappropriately propositioning a female operator. Yeah, he knew it was wrong but didn't think it was "that" wrong and would do it again. Humanity is an interesting study.
- Thread starter
- #57
Meanwhile spare a thought for the poor bloke trapped in the photo-copying room by the very attractive blonde lady engineer who had just borrowed Crane 410 (metric) from him and now proceeded to pull up her pullover to show the bruises on her ribs from her dance class..... ![[blush]](/data/assets/smilies/blush.gif "[blush] [blush]")
It's not all a one way street.....
JMW
It's not all a one way street.....
JMW
I'll share you the pain of bringing up the issues I had with Jane again, suffice to say in this day and age though it's not just a 2 way street it's more of a multiple freeway intersection ala spaghetti junction.
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I realize there are some problem women. I watched one that I didn't like much because she was a prude. She was so much a prude she chastised a young, single man for nicely complimenting a cute waitress at a sports bar. He wasn't offensive nor was the waitress offended. I wondered how she was ever going to conceive, if she ever married.
casseopeia
Structural
What women find encouraging (or discouraging) I would think is pretty much the same as your average, straight, white, male engineer. I'm not going to jump into the sociological analysis of why more women do not enter the field. But from a female perspective, here are the things that I have found encouraging to stay in my career.
Bosses, supervisors or mentors who were patient with their explanations of what they expected me to do and did not mind occasionally having to repeat those instructions.
Bosses, supervisors or mentors asking me if there is anything I need to do my job better, and then making an effort to obtain it.
Co-workers of all levels who asked for my opinion, did not automatically discount my thoughts and implemented my suggestions or design.
Co-workers and Supervisors who gave me credit for my suggestions or design and did not steal it or take credit for themselves.
Managers who encouraged teamwork and quashed schoolyard antics such as one engineer inviting everyone on the team, except for one singled out individual, to a party or other event outside of the workplace. This is an important one and not easy to enforce, but it is possible. I know because I have been a victim as a junior team member and have punished such things as a manager. This one is so important to me that I make a point of mentioning it at project initiation meetings. I expect my team members to act as a unit with a common goal, to respect each other at the work place as well as in their private life.
Things that have had absolutely no effect on my desire to stay in my field, even though they get a lot of press.
A co-worker asking me out on a date.
Other co-workers teasing me about going out on a date with someone at work.
A co-worker telling a dirty joke or making some obscene reference.
Someone consistently using a male pronoun when the gender of the unknown individual could be either.
Swearing.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
Bosses, supervisors or mentors who were patient with their explanations of what they expected me to do and did not mind occasionally having to repeat those instructions.
Bosses, supervisors or mentors asking me if there is anything I need to do my job better, and then making an effort to obtain it.
Co-workers of all levels who asked for my opinion, did not automatically discount my thoughts and implemented my suggestions or design.
Co-workers and Supervisors who gave me credit for my suggestions or design and did not steal it or take credit for themselves.
Managers who encouraged teamwork and quashed schoolyard antics such as one engineer inviting everyone on the team, except for one singled out individual, to a party or other event outside of the workplace. This is an important one and not easy to enforce, but it is possible. I know because I have been a victim as a junior team member and have punished such things as a manager. This one is so important to me that I make a point of mentioning it at project initiation meetings. I expect my team members to act as a unit with a common goal, to respect each other at the work place as well as in their private life.
Things that have had absolutely no effect on my desire to stay in my field, even though they get a lot of press.
A co-worker asking me out on a date.
Other co-workers teasing me about going out on a date with someone at work.
A co-worker telling a dirty joke or making some obscene reference.
Someone consistently using a male pronoun when the gender of the unknown individual could be either.
Swearing.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
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