Windage trays 1

[GregLocock]

I was just looking through some old data, and found some dyno graphs showing the effect of windage trays. We got a consistent improvement of 3 kW at 5000 rpm.

Given that this should be proportional to speed^3 it's not going to have much of an effect lower down, but hey, 3 kW is worth a look.

(Just in case we've got terminology problems, we call the curved tray under the crankshaft, over the sump, a windage tray). Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[MaxRaceSoftware]

Greg, everytime we did dragstrip testing of GM OEM solid metal windage trays , they slowed the race car down !
On the dyno we also saw losses with "solid-type" trays
mounted to main studs .

the "screen-type" , that is , the teflon coated , diamond cut, directionalized , screen did make HP , this seems to be the only kind of a tray that makes HP, it lets oil flinging off crank assembly go thru screen, but somewhat restricts oil from passing back up thru screen back towards crank

the most HP oil pans i've seen over the years in dragracing that ran the fastest down the track, were just big empty boxe-styly wet oil pans , no tricks , just keep oil away from rotating assembly ! Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers

http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/

 

[NickB]

It also has the added benefit of not aerating the oil in the pan. Not really much of an issue with a dry-sump oiling system, but how many times do you see that on the street? I've been thinking of putting one in there somehow just to keep air out of the oil.

 

[GregLocock]

That was our main reason for investigating them. Oil aeration is a big problem with our crank, which could double as a windmill. Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[cycle]

Strange,In that Larry did not see an increase in power. I have read more than a few reports on the benefits of a windage tray.But I also realize the dyno doesn"t lie. Not to get off subject, Now crank scrapers seem to be the rage for controlling oil on the crankshaft,the results also seem to bear out the fact that these components do work. But?? A quik story, A normal M/C drag engine holds 4 qaurts of oil. However, When I cut the amount back to 2.5 quarts I gain a substantial increase in m.p.h. & e.t. in the quarter mile. With no ill effects in oiling. There is defininately merit to keeping oil away from the rotating assembly. Craig

 

[sbc]

Craig you're correct, scrapers are the way to go.
Oil "roped" around the crank robs power, aerates
& foams the oil, & can even suck oil from the pan.

 

[evelrod]

Greg, without tightly fitted scrapers, the windage tray is just a convenient place to collect excess oil for the crank to hit. Just check out the bottom end of a Model A Ford! I never did any dyno tests, but track testing of wet sump engines led me AWAY form windage trays for a long time. Scrapers and the screen type trays are what I advocate now. (except for the Mini, which is a 'whole nuther ball game')


Rod

 

[MaxRaceSoftware]

Scrapers and the screen type trays are what I advocate now.
--Rod

---------------------------------------------

Rod, i've seen the same results !
it seems at least the old 1960-1970 GM solid type windage trays on the old perfomance cars, hurt HP , it looks like oil was just bouncing back up into rotating assembly, never getting away !!!

with proper screen design and scrapers, HP went up

but almost all the engines i've seen apart that went down the track fast , were just big empty oil pans with
bottom trap doors/baffling to keep oil near pickup ,
no tricks in pan , just as big as you could fit in the car with 4 to 5 quarts of oil .(referring to wet-pans only)


Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers

http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/

 

[MaxRaceSoftware]

i have at my shop and have run on my dragster , an old
John Lingenfelter oil pan he designed in 1970's

he experimented with running 4 quarts of oil in pan , and by top end thru quarter mile lights on a ET run, he restricted and played around with block's oil drain back holes to keep a couple of quarts in lifter galley area
from draining back into pan thru 1/4 mile lights
what was left in pan at that moment was just 2 qts.

so John used a combination of the large pan, 4 quarts, and resricting drainback to pickup HP

"Strictly dragracing stuff !!!!!!!" Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers

http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/

 

[MaxRaceSoftware]

i had a customer one time on the dyno that came with a
8 1/4 " depth full-length steel Hamburger oil pan
on a BBC Chevy engine .

he filled the engine with 12 quarts of oil to get back to stock level-mark on stock dipstick !!

we made a bunch of pulls, but the engine would not repeat
HP/Torque readings like all the other engines

it also kept leaking small drips of oil at front and rear seals during tests.

finally i asked the engine biulder how many quarts of oil he had in the pan ?? he said he put 12, thats what it took to reach the mark.

i then showed him the Lingenfelter oil pan and convinced him to drain 3 quarts out after 1/2 hour of talking to him
and reassuring him, we redyno tested ..HP/Torque increased and oil pressure went UP 10 to 12 psi !!!!!!!!!!!

he had so much oil in the pan , the crank was foaming it up
(...its very hard to run in a swimming pool)

tried to talk into taking out 3 more quarts, but he refused


the way i look at it..every oil pan ever made is a
" 5 quart oil pan " .....no matter if its as bid as a house ,its still 5 quarts...with proper baffeling/trap doors around pickup.

i've seen tons of racers bring engines to dyno with
a bunch of oil in them ...they put a large HiPerf oil pan on the engine, but they fill up the pan with a ton of oil to get back to the stock mark on the dipstick,,, they accomplished NOTHING !!!

Now they have all that oil to warmup and cool down and also control during dragstrip run ...its hurting HP and their checkbook !!!

Some of the oil pan manufacturers have stopped
listing oil pan capacity in quarts because racers were
filling up their oil pans to STOCK levels

the purpose of a deep oil pan is to KEEP AWAY oil from rotating assembly, and NOT to put more oil in pan
and kill HP
Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers

http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/

 

[evelrod]

Larry,in my last GOOD wetsump, the pan had extensions left and right and trap doors up the kazoo, but stock depth (ground clearance was only 2 1/2 inches) and the stock 5 qts. It still worked great with only scrapers (windage tray kept cracking around mounts [harmonics???]). Total oil volumn was near 9 qts.+/- with 19 row oil cooler, -12 lines and Fram HP-1 (I use Wix 51515R now).

NOW ANYBODY---for the good question. What will work on my MINI COOPER? The transmission should, in theory, 'rope' the lube around the gears, BUT DOES IT? The oil will be picked up in the sump and pulled up to the pump(past TWO magnets to remove metal, hopefully) then via -10 hoses to the filter (Wix 51515R) then down to the BOTTOM of the 16 row cooler, out the TOP of the cooler and down to the oil IN gallery. I am hoping aeration at that point will be minimum, BUT??? Listen up, boys and girls. I AM NOT an expert in Mini's and I will gladely listen to anybody with Mini experience or experiences. I hope to have mine on the road/track by summers end.


Rod

 

[Snork]

I don't have drag race experience, but have developed engines for off road use where we found windage trays with scrapers to be a necessity. Without this system we were able to suspend/foam enough oil so that the lifters (hydraulic) would not stay pumped leading to a severe miss and loss of power. A well designed tray/scraper system killed the problem completely.

 

[jaymaec]

Hi, Rod

I gather you don't want to (or can't?) run a real dry-sump system - oh, yes- the trans shares oil!

As you describe it, any air that gets into the oil must continue to go with it, as there is no escape route.

What if you provide a small inline can or tank (not with fill opening!) where the oil flow velocity is reduced (larger area, same flow rate = lower velocity) any air can rise up to the top of the can. Provide a small orfice to allow any air (yes, and probably some oil) back into the crankcase where it can recirculate.

Size the orfice so that you can tolerate the oil flow (loss)through it, and it should be plenty big enough for any air that gets into the pump.

I have never worked on a Mini, but- if you're worried about air, this would be a way to deal with it- and no moving parts to screw up!

Probably want to get the air out before the oil hits the filter, don't you think?

Since everything is new/race mode, why not put the filter right next to the motor, clean oil out of the motor and into the motor !

Whaddaya think?

regards
Jay

 

[JayMaechtlen]

oops - I meant "clean oil out of the FILTER and into the engine!

this way, anything that somehow gets into any of the hoses, coolers, etc. has to go THROUGH the filter and hopefully stop there!

I was posting from home as jaymaec, now will post as jaymaechtlen from both home and work.

does the air vent idea make any sense to you?

Regards
Jay

 

[evelrod]

Jay, perhaps on an engine where I could install a booster pump or a pump of sufficient 'over capacity' I could see where this 'might' work in theory. In practice, I'm afraid it would not be able to keep up with the aeration, based on what I have seen in dry sump applications. I don't claim expertise here, just what I have observed. Perhaps someone out there can help us out here?
At any rate, in the case of the Mini Cooper, the pump has just enough capacity to keep up. The reason the original engine failed (it was 1458cc , 73mm bore X 86mm stroke) was due to boundry layer failure at the center main. Perhaps caused by loss of oil pressure due to aeration???
To solving this perceived problem , I have routed the oil system in such a manner (space available) to allow the oil time to 'rest' and prevent drainback without causing excessive pressure drop(I hope). The filter is the FIRST place the oil goes as it leaves the pump and before the cooler, etc. Everything is new and clean to start, and if anything happens, it's a good bet the filter will stop debris. Lets hope this never happens, but I have been in racing too long to bank on that scenario.

Give me an email and I will post you an invitation to 'WEBSHOTS' where you can see the progress of the little 'BEASTIE' (shes called "Bad Attitude&quot


Rod

 

[JayMaechtlen]

ok
jmaechtlen@yahoo.com

looking forward to it

jay