Why do Engineers constantly cut throat each other ? 12

[FixIt76]

Why do engineers constantly cut throat each others prices? Specifically I'm talking about civil/structurals, maybe others do to. Is the business sense of engineers in general that bad? We only hurt ourselves.

 

[Ron]

The whole premise only applies to licensed engineers, not exempt or non-licensed disciplines.

 

[cranky108]

Like lawers, it is possible to pay a retainer for an engineer, or engineering firm. It is not that common though.

In some factories it is possible to sell products at below the cost of manufacturing, because it is cheeper than closing the factory and waiting for prices to go up. The same is possible in engineering firms, though also not common.

Then there is what is called a lost leader sale in business to attract new business that will be possible.

If you haven't studied business, you need to. If you have studied business, you know it is crazy.

 

[KENAT]

Well I've known of a few 'lost leaders' but I think you may mean loss leader cranky.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[JedClampett]

"We lose a little on every job, but we make it up in volume?"

 

[cranky108]

I never was good at spelling, but that is why I became an engineer.

 

[TheBlacksmith]

Having just stumbled across and read this entire topic for the first time, I'm not sure that "Lost Leader" insn't appropriate.

 

[lacajun]

There was a time when engineers in the US were precluded from bidding on jobs by ethical standards. The Supreme Court canned that in the late 70's. Most older line firms tried hard to maintain that practice for many years...some still do (round of applause for those!). Several recessions, scared engineers, arrogant architects (yes, JAE is correct...at least for one component), and loathesome financial vs. engineering management have led to the decline of our profession into its present state.

Can you provide resources to read how that came about in the Supreme Court? I can use google but suspect it's buried in archives thus not easily found. Our current economic state highlights how loathsome, eh?

One major factor is the change from engineers managing engineering firms to accountants managing engineering firms. (I deplore non-engineers managing licensed professionals almost as much as Snorgy hates MBA's...same vein). I am convinced that this will be the ultimate killer of our profession.

I have to agree with your assessment. I listened to a company this week state they're in the midst of automating so they can eliminate operators and others. I shook my head at what they think their efforts will accomplish. They were financial types not technical. Like a lot of companies, they have underinvested in their workforce, which is causing problems as older employees retire. They think technology will solve this dilemma.

I always showed the real fee and the subsequent write off so that clients didn't get the impression that what they paid was the actual cost of the work.

Thanks for the idea, when I get to use it.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[IRstuff]

Much of automation just simply hasn't gotten to the level needed; or has morphed into something else.

One amusing thing is CAD; wherein it started as simply moving paper drawings to the computer and working on them in there. Now, we have all this wonderful solid modelling, but our suppliers still need 2-D drawings to cut metal, but they can't be auto-generated from the solid models, so 2-D drawings are now an additional drawing that must be created, thereby increasing the amount of work that the engineer has to do. It's "better" but it's a lot more work. We now seem to need another "tool" that will generate machining drawings from the solid models directly without additional work.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[McLJ]

My pleasure, Pamela. I have clients ask if I will give them a break on the fee. I show them that I already have and that pretty much shuts them up.

I have a friend, a residential home designer, who refuses to do this because she's afraid it will reflect badly on her. Her theory is that the client will think she's not good at her job if it took her longer than she estimated. When she gets a request to reduce her fee, she has nothing to show that she already has and then ends up resenting the client for not appreciating how much she did for them. These clients tell their friends what a great deal they got and recommend her because she is cheap and the next guy is unhappy because the estimate is more than his buddy paid. I think it's a bit nuts, but a lot of people think I am, too.

 

[lacajun]

IRstuff, using automation in that manner is akin to the effort underway 20+ years ago to write manuals whereby any Joe Blow-Emup off the street could be an instrument tech. Just didn't work out somehow... Perhaps in another 50 years we'll have perfect technology for management. ;-)

McLJ, it seems you've found the more agreeable method, since it helps your clients understand the true nature of the job and you have no resentment over lack of appreciation. Your way, I thought upon reading it, is elegant.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[Ron]

lacajun...
Here's a link to the decision...

Supreme Court Decision on Bidding

 

[lacajun]

Thanks, Ron!

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[cranky108]

I've noticed manuals have gone from bad to worse. Almost like the writer dosen't understand what they are writeing about. And some companies won't give you a manual unless you attend there $1000 class.
No wonder I shy away from there products. The sales glossys just don't cut it.

While on the subject of manuals, why can't someone make a notepad function that attaches to a PDF file? So we the users can make notes of mistakes for the next guy to watch out for.

This has little to do with cutting each others throats, except that product quality seems to be droping with the reduction of staff in manufacturing.

Maybe if the OP were to enter another field of engineering, where there is more of a need.

 

[Ron]

Acrobat has a note function. You can also annotate PDF files in a variety of ways.

 

[cranky108]

Thank you Ron. I'm not as computer savy as the younger engineers. The computers we had in school, besides the main frame, were called Comde 64's (Pun intended).

The fact that we can communicate here is proof that engineers don't constantly cut throat each other. But we enter into competive business ventures. Sort of like when you go to a car dealer, and three or more sales people showup. They all are after the same thing, to take home a paycheck.

 

[IRstuff]

Ultimately, we all are after that. As a general rule, undercutting your competitors may keep you afloat in the short term, but chronic underbidding is one path to bankruptcy. Therefore, if someone is actually succeeding at undercutting for time frames exceeding a couple of years, then they are either money laundering or they are more efficient than you. In either case, you need to amp up your efficiencies to ensure that you can stay afloat yourself.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[SteelPE]

FixIT76

If you don't like engineers cut throating each other then don't look at this thread....

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=328416

if it's still there.