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What ASME section covers in-service repairs and alterations? 1
- Thread starter KernOily
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #21
jte,
What is there in Okland that we do not have here,
the only difference is that they have 2 sections the inspection agency and the chief's office!
Believe me I know.
If you want something done in So.Cal, deal you deal with in here.
You may be surprised that a lot of the desitions are made here in the South!
And there are no too frienly AIs in the inspection business, they are tough.(job security)'don't blame them.
I just hope that no one is cough alterating a vessel w/o their authorization.
ER
What is there in Okland that we do not have here,
the only difference is that they have 2 sections the inspection agency and the chief's office!
Believe me I know.
If you want something done in So.Cal, deal you deal with in here.
You may be surprised that a lot of the desitions are made here in the South!
And there are no too frienly AIs in the inspection business, they are tough.(job security)'don't blame them.
I just hope that no one is cough alterating a vessel w/o their authorization.
ER
Why not use the AI as a resource?
We do not approve anything,only accept. Our job is to make sure that everyone complies with requirements. It is really about SAFETY,SAFETY,SAFETY.
See Rules for Commissioned Inspectors NB-263 at
Keep yourself out of trouble-maybe save lives or property. If one must pay anyway-use it.
We do not approve anything,only accept. Our job is to make sure that everyone complies with requirements. It is really about SAFETY,SAFETY,SAFETY.
See Rules for Commissioned Inspectors NB-263 at
Keep yourself out of trouble-maybe save lives or property. If one must pay anyway-use it.
- Thread starter
- #24
It was always my intent to utilize the AI. I have been involved with some rerates and alterations in the past but not to this degree, so now I have to get down 'in the weeds' with this one, which is good experience for me. As I said, there is a lot of misinformation out there between the owners, engineers, and fabricators.
jte - do you know if the AI's are split by region or?? And is the AI a state employee or an employee of Hartford etc.? I am up in Bakersfield. Thanks - Pete
Thanks!
Pete
jte - do you know if the AI's are split by region or?? And is the AI a state employee or an employee of Hartford etc.? I am up in Bakersfield. Thanks - Pete
Thanks!
Pete
(No, not jte) but ER
The AI works for an authorized AIA, can be the State or an Insurance Co,
If you have the R stamp or work with one you the stamp holder must know who to call,
The National Board Inspection Code can give you all details of inspection responsibilities,
ER
The AI works for an authorized AIA, can be the State or an Insurance Co,
If you have the R stamp or work with one you the stamp holder must know who to call,
The National Board Inspection Code can give you all details of inspection responsibilities,
ER
ER-
What is in Oakland but not in Anaheim is the boss. I'd rather go straight to the top than agree on a path forward with another only to have that path changed en route. Further, he is arguably the most knowlegable in the PVU and thus the best resource for consultations. And I fully agree with you on the unauthorized alterations (or repairs) issue. My point with 74Elsinore is that what he is proposing is not an alteration.
deanc-
I agree, by all means, use the AI as a resource. However, I stand on my position that an AI is not required in 74Elsinore's case. Optional vs required can be a big deal. Much depends on the facility's ability to evaluate the current condition of the vessel. I happen to work at a facility which has the necessary resources (personnel and equipment). Believe me, safety drives our decision making. If someone working in the plant gets hurt or killed because of a mistake I make, it will be me going to the hospital to visit them. Not the AI. I know the folks in the plant; the AI doesn't. The safety of our plant is personal to me; it is business to an AIA.
74Elsinore-
To be honest, I don't know where the boundary is drawn to distinguish the Anaheim from the Oakland office's territory. They do work together on technical issues, but you'll have to call one of the offices to determine which PVU AI covers Bakersfield. I suspect Anaheim. Their contact info is at
As a preferred alternative, though, use the AIA which insures the facility. As mentioned in a previous post, this may govern. At our facility, we generally consult with the State (their approval req'd for rerates, but not all alterations) but the choice of whether to use the State or an AIA inspector is left to the (qualified) contractor who is performing the work.
Bottom line: Consulting with an AI is good practice, but in this case, as a courtesy not a requirement. As metenger noted, it is best to establish and nourish the relationship between the owner/engineer and their AI and/or State.
jt
What is in Oakland but not in Anaheim is the boss. I'd rather go straight to the top than agree on a path forward with another only to have that path changed en route. Further, he is arguably the most knowlegable in the PVU and thus the best resource for consultations. And I fully agree with you on the unauthorized alterations (or repairs) issue. My point with 74Elsinore is that what he is proposing is not an alteration.
deanc-
I agree, by all means, use the AI as a resource. However, I stand on my position that an AI is not required in 74Elsinore's case. Optional vs required can be a big deal. Much depends on the facility's ability to evaluate the current condition of the vessel. I happen to work at a facility which has the necessary resources (personnel and equipment). Believe me, safety drives our decision making. If someone working in the plant gets hurt or killed because of a mistake I make, it will be me going to the hospital to visit them. Not the AI. I know the folks in the plant; the AI doesn't. The safety of our plant is personal to me; it is business to an AIA.
74Elsinore-
To be honest, I don't know where the boundary is drawn to distinguish the Anaheim from the Oakland office's territory. They do work together on technical issues, but you'll have to call one of the offices to determine which PVU AI covers Bakersfield. I suspect Anaheim. Their contact info is at
As a preferred alternative, though, use the AIA which insures the facility. As mentioned in a previous post, this may govern. At our facility, we generally consult with the State (their approval req'd for rerates, but not all alterations) but the choice of whether to use the State or an AIA inspector is left to the (qualified) contractor who is performing the work.
Bottom line: Consulting with an AI is good practice, but in this case, as a courtesy not a requirement. As metenger noted, it is best to establish and nourish the relationship between the owner/engineer and their AI and/or State.
jt
- Thread starter
- #27
Great post guys.
I just realized I screwed up big time in that I forgot to mention one very small issue... dddduuuuhhhh!!!!
We will be rerating the vessel for full vacuum service. I have not done the calcs but I am sure it will need stiffening rings. So an alteration is in order.
Thanks!
Pete
I just realized I screwed up big time in that I forgot to mention one very small issue... dddduuuuhhhh!!!!
We will be rerating the vessel for full vacuum service. I have not done the calcs but I am sure it will need stiffening rings. So an alteration is in order.
Thanks!
Pete
74Elsinore-
Yup, adding FV would be an alteration regardless of whether or not it requires physical modifications to the vessel. This requires prior approval from the State (in California, others may vary). You may use either the State or an AIA provided AI to oversee the work and approve the installation of the nameplate.
jt
Yup, adding FV would be an alteration regardless of whether or not it requires physical modifications to the vessel. This requires prior approval from the State (in California, others may vary). You may use either the State or an AIA provided AI to oversee the work and approve the installation of the nameplate.
jt
going way back up to the first question....hang in there ASME are preparing a raft of new codes for repairs to in- service equipment..dont know the publication dates though..covers welding to thinned piping, overlay build ups, sleeving of thinned pipe ..all that sort of stuff Aybee
Aybee;
In-service inspection, repair and alteration of pressure retaining items is under the National Board Inspection Code and will always be, because the Jurisdictions have adopted and endorsed this code. Locations with no Jurisdictions can do whatever they please.
The ASME post construction standards are guidelines. Unless the NBIC or the Jurisdiction adopts these guidelines and makes them mandatory, they will only be considered as an option for use! I can say from my dealings with Jurisdictional chiefs that unless the NBIC endorses the ASME post construction repair guidelines, they will remain as guidelines!
In-service inspection, repair and alteration of pressure retaining items is under the National Board Inspection Code and will always be, because the Jurisdictions have adopted and endorsed this code. Locations with no Jurisdictions can do whatever they please.
The ASME post construction standards are guidelines. Unless the NBIC or the Jurisdiction adopts these guidelines and makes them mandatory, they will only be considered as an option for use! I can say from my dealings with Jurisdictional chiefs that unless the NBIC endorses the ASME post construction repair guidelines, they will remain as guidelines!
generalblr-
I moved from Southern California to Northern California. It is, in many ways, a different state!
I'm curious about your source of info on the post-construction activities committee. Take a look at my links on my Oct 27 post. The Becht link especially seems to contradict your above post (assuming by "inservice" you mean "after the equipment has been placed into service" and not "while the equipment is operating"). The first paragraph is:
"ASME has created a new Main Committee, the Post Construction Main Committee, to prepare codes and standards for pressure equipment that has been in service. These standards are intended to cover the pressure equipment which is covered by the ASME Pressure Technology Codes and Standards for new equipment, such as piping, vessels and boilers. Two subcommittees have been created under Main Committee, which are working on creating two new books. These are Flaw Evaluation and Inspection Planning."
The BPVC Committee will be meeting in San Francisco in mid December. The meetings are open to the public; I'll attend at least a day to see what's going on. Perhaps I'll get some more info then.
jt
I moved from Southern California to Northern California. It is, in many ways, a different state!
I'm curious about your source of info on the post-construction activities committee. Take a look at my links on my Oct 27 post. The Becht link especially seems to contradict your above post (assuming by "inservice" you mean "after the equipment has been placed into service" and not "while the equipment is operating"). The first paragraph is:
"ASME has created a new Main Committee, the Post Construction Main Committee, to prepare codes and standards for pressure equipment that has been in service. These standards are intended to cover the pressure equipment which is covered by the ASME Pressure Technology Codes and Standards for new equipment, such as piping, vessels and boilers. Two subcommittees have been created under Main Committee, which are working on creating two new books. These are Flaw Evaluation and Inspection Planning."
The BPVC Committee will be meeting in San Francisco in mid December. The meetings are open to the public; I'll attend at least a day to see what's going on. Perhaps I'll get some more info then.
jt
so it looks like I was less wrong than I thought re Codes and Standards for In service plant. to me In Service is pressure equipment after it has been fabricated , installed and put into service...but it would not be the first time i had organised repairs on plant which is operating..steam lines for instance have a nasty habit of leaking where there is no isolation valves necessitating a "box" or sleeved repair..Aybee
aybee;
Be very careful with using these "box" or "sleeved repairs" on high energy piping (HEP) systems. These fixes are fine for low pressure and temperature components provided you fully understand the cause of the leakage - like valve packing leaks or steam leakage at a gasket.
For HEP systems these fixes must be carefully evaluated. First and foremost, you need to determine the location and specific cause of the steam leakage (girth weld, welded fitting or seam weld). Steam leakage at or adjacent to welds or fittings could be an indicator of creep or creep/fatigue damage that can result in catastrophic failure or rupture. I would not recommend these types of repairs to HEP systems.
Be very careful with using these "box" or "sleeved repairs" on high energy piping (HEP) systems. These fixes are fine for low pressure and temperature components provided you fully understand the cause of the leakage - like valve packing leaks or steam leakage at a gasket.
For HEP systems these fixes must be carefully evaluated. First and foremost, you need to determine the location and specific cause of the steam leakage (girth weld, welded fitting or seam weld). Steam leakage at or adjacent to welds or fittings could be an indicator of creep or creep/fatigue damage that can result in catastrophic failure or rupture. I would not recommend these types of repairs to HEP systems.
agree Metegr. all these repairs have been on condensate steam low pressure no low alloy,creep temps etc but the type of PIA job than can shutdown a plant due to the short term economics of not adding in a few isolation valves on headers ...no heroics ..Aybee
Hi ya folks.
I'm not up to speed on all the AI, NBIC, ASME VIII stuff... given that I'm an engineer in a major hazards facility in the state of Victoria down in Australia - and we have a very diffent PV regime... but surely the answer to the original question at the top of the thread lies in API510 "PV inspection, rating, maintenance and repair"?
By the way, this has been one of the most elucidating threads I've ever read at eng tips.
Cheers
Rob
I'm not up to speed on all the AI, NBIC, ASME VIII stuff... given that I'm an engineer in a major hazards facility in the state of Victoria down in Australia - and we have a very diffent PV regime... but surely the answer to the original question at the top of the thread lies in API510 "PV inspection, rating, maintenance and repair"?
By the way, this has been one of the most elucidating threads I've ever read at eng tips.
Cheers
Rob
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