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Unions 9
- Thread starter PSE
- Start date
WOW! That's a loaded question that is likely to get a heated debate. I'm hesitant to respond simply because of the emotionally charged subject this is. I'm sure several people are curious about this thread, but are unsure of how to tactfully state their views. I know I am, but here it goes. Since this is going to be a personal opinion/biased subject, I'll try to explain my bias.
I grew up in a blue collar home. My father was a factory worker and represented by a union. The union saved him and hurt him equal amounts.
Personally, I think unions are outdated. They served their purpose during the industrial revolution when working conditions were miserable and corporations abused their employees. Lately, unions serve no purpose because the economy was hot and white and blue collar workers alike were better off on their own. Well, the (US) economy has gone south again and unions seem to have some value, but they need to be redefined. Bringing back a union organization like decades ago will only hurt the represented.
When I went to work for an aerospace company as an engineer, I was represented by their engineering union, whether or not I joined the union. I couldn't negotiate my own contract so I got stuck with crap I couldn't use and couldn't get benefits that were useful. Then, we went on strike. Being raised in a union house, I understood the importance of picket lines. I chose not to cross the line, but I also chose not to picket. I didn't spend years in school earning a degree to walk the picket line. In the end, I didn't get any pay for the months on strike (thankfully I had a hefty savings) and since I wasn't a member of the union, I didn't get any backpay. BUT I WAS STILL REPRESENTED BY THEM SO I HAD TO TAKE WHATEVER CONTRACT THEY NEGOTIATED. At least I still had the respect of my coworkers by not crossing the line. Those that did cross the line got alienated once the strike was over. It would have been helpful if our union would have had a guaranteed strike fund to help those people with families afford to eat. I can see why some crossed and others didn't, but that's why I don't care for unions.
So now you know my viewpoint and why I am biased towards that viewpoint.
I grew up in a blue collar home. My father was a factory worker and represented by a union. The union saved him and hurt him equal amounts.
Personally, I think unions are outdated. They served their purpose during the industrial revolution when working conditions were miserable and corporations abused their employees. Lately, unions serve no purpose because the economy was hot and white and blue collar workers alike were better off on their own. Well, the (US) economy has gone south again and unions seem to have some value, but they need to be redefined. Bringing back a union organization like decades ago will only hurt the represented.
When I went to work for an aerospace company as an engineer, I was represented by their engineering union, whether or not I joined the union. I couldn't negotiate my own contract so I got stuck with crap I couldn't use and couldn't get benefits that were useful. Then, we went on strike. Being raised in a union house, I understood the importance of picket lines. I chose not to cross the line, but I also chose not to picket. I didn't spend years in school earning a degree to walk the picket line. In the end, I didn't get any pay for the months on strike (thankfully I had a hefty savings) and since I wasn't a member of the union, I didn't get any backpay. BUT I WAS STILL REPRESENTED BY THEM SO I HAD TO TAKE WHATEVER CONTRACT THEY NEGOTIATED. At least I still had the respect of my coworkers by not crossing the line. Those that did cross the line got alienated once the strike was over. It would have been helpful if our union would have had a guaranteed strike fund to help those people with families afford to eat. I can see why some crossed and others didn't, but that's why I don't care for unions.
So now you know my viewpoint and why I am biased towards that viewpoint.
I have watched more than a few plants collapse under the weight of arcane union contracts and the abuse of union power. Unions make it too difficult to fire dead weight or even promote good people based on merit. Union OT rules promote malingering until that time-and-a-half clock starts a-tickin'. One IE I knew said the most important thing to know on his job was where the union guys hide parts. Thanks to unions, Racine, WI is turning into a ghost town.
On the upside, I have seen the difference between union and scab work in the building trades (mostly HVAC). Union work was always of noticeably better quality.
![[bat]](/data/assets/smilies/bat.gif "[bat] [bat]")
I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.
On the upside, I have seen the difference between union and scab work in the building trades (mostly HVAC). Union work was always of noticeably better quality.
I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.-
2
- #4
Unions themselves are neutral. They serve to protect the workers from the imbalances of power that exist in the workplace.
It is how unions use or abuse their power that makes them good or bad. That is the same as management. They too can use their power in the workplace for either good or bad, management is not inherently good or bad either.
If management is perceived by unions as abusing its power then the union will react with a hard line. Work to rule campaigns, strikes, grievances are all part of the unions parcel.
If management is not abusing its power and is treating the workforce with respect and doing so in a fair and impartial manner, then unions will also respond in a fair and impartial manner. Problems will be resolved and discussed without the issues being personal.
Of course that’s in a perfect world and we humans do not live in a perfect world. Lots of people on both sides of the table come to the meeting with loads of old baggage. This baggage gets in the way of doing anything productive for both parties.
I think that unions would do a lot better if they cleaned house. They know who the deadbeats and incompetents are among their ranks. Kick some of them out and act more like labour brokers where they guarantee a good worker, skilled in his trade and one who follows safe work practices. Remember worker safety was one of the main starting points for unions. My biggest fights with unions has been when I have removed workers from site due to their unsafe practices. (These comments apply more to construction unions that use a hiring hall than manufacturing unions.)
Unions must also recognize that management has some rights in the workplace. One of those is to make a profit. If the union uses (or abuses) its power in the workplace to make the company unprofitable then the company will fold and the work will go elsewhere, often overseas.
Two parting observations:
1) Unions are among the worst employers. When I worked for the government, the union representing the clerical workers had their clerical workers go out on strike. The workers simply wanted to have the same contract as the members got from the government.
2) Union management is made up of people who are on leave from their normal worker position to serve in the union. If they leave the union management they will take a drastic loss in pay and status. This high pay comes out of the pockets of those poor downtrodden workers that the union management is claiming to represent.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
It is how unions use or abuse their power that makes them good or bad. That is the same as management. They too can use their power in the workplace for either good or bad, management is not inherently good or bad either.
If management is perceived by unions as abusing its power then the union will react with a hard line. Work to rule campaigns, strikes, grievances are all part of the unions parcel.
If management is not abusing its power and is treating the workforce with respect and doing so in a fair and impartial manner, then unions will also respond in a fair and impartial manner. Problems will be resolved and discussed without the issues being personal.
Of course that’s in a perfect world and we humans do not live in a perfect world. Lots of people on both sides of the table come to the meeting with loads of old baggage. This baggage gets in the way of doing anything productive for both parties.
I think that unions would do a lot better if they cleaned house. They know who the deadbeats and incompetents are among their ranks. Kick some of them out and act more like labour brokers where they guarantee a good worker, skilled in his trade and one who follows safe work practices. Remember worker safety was one of the main starting points for unions. My biggest fights with unions has been when I have removed workers from site due to their unsafe practices. (These comments apply more to construction unions that use a hiring hall than manufacturing unions.)
Unions must also recognize that management has some rights in the workplace. One of those is to make a profit. If the union uses (or abuses) its power in the workplace to make the company unprofitable then the company will fold and the work will go elsewhere, often overseas.
Two parting observations:
1) Unions are among the worst employers. When I worked for the government, the union representing the clerical workers had their clerical workers go out on strike. The workers simply wanted to have the same contract as the members got from the government.
2) Union management is made up of people who are on leave from their normal worker position to serve in the union. If they leave the union management they will take a drastic loss in pay and status. This high pay comes out of the pockets of those poor downtrodden workers that the union management is claiming to represent.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
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1
- #5
Can't argue too much with your comments above. Just a few other slants on unions:
1. Unions exist to provide power/leverage to a job/career when the large supply of individuals in that job/career exceed the demand. Back in the industrial revolution, there was an increasing supply of urban "labor" who could be mistreated by the "owners" because the owner could simply fire them individually and hire 20 more like them.
Point: Unions originally represented high-supply low-skilled worker bees.
2. Other than explicit laws, there is no check on union power. As the union gathers in more careers under its umbrella, owners are forced to deal with an equivalent to labor-extortion..."pay us X or else we'll put you out of business".
Point: Unions have no natural check on their power.
3. Labor unions tend to de-professionalize and de-motivate careers. My wife is a public school teacher in a right-to-work state in the US. Many of her co-workers claim to be "professionals" and try to behave as such, but with the union hovering over them, they end up a sorry bunch as many are not motivated to perform beyond what their "contract" demands and do the absolute minimum to satisfy the contract. No one is ever fired or feels threatened with poor work causing employment problems.
Point: Unions take the fizz out of professionalism.
4. Labor unions will always tend toward political activism because of point 2 above. They create Political action committees to force/sway politicians into their camp by promising blocks of votes from their membership. Individual union members are forced to pay dues which support politicians or laws that are contrary to their own conscience.
Point: Unions get political fast, and make democracy a joke.
1. Unions exist to provide power/leverage to a job/career when the large supply of individuals in that job/career exceed the demand. Back in the industrial revolution, there was an increasing supply of urban "labor" who could be mistreated by the "owners" because the owner could simply fire them individually and hire 20 more like them.
Point: Unions originally represented high-supply low-skilled worker bees.
2. Other than explicit laws, there is no check on union power. As the union gathers in more careers under its umbrella, owners are forced to deal with an equivalent to labor-extortion..."pay us X or else we'll put you out of business".
Point: Unions have no natural check on their power.
3. Labor unions tend to de-professionalize and de-motivate careers. My wife is a public school teacher in a right-to-work state in the US. Many of her co-workers claim to be "professionals" and try to behave as such, but with the union hovering over them, they end up a sorry bunch as many are not motivated to perform beyond what their "contract" demands and do the absolute minimum to satisfy the contract. No one is ever fired or feels threatened with poor work causing employment problems.
Point: Unions take the fizz out of professionalism.
4. Labor unions will always tend toward political activism because of point 2 above. They create Political action committees to force/sway politicians into their camp by promising blocks of votes from their membership. Individual union members are forced to pay dues which support politicians or laws that are contrary to their own conscience.
Point: Unions get political fast, and make democracy a joke.
JAE
I cannot argue with your point #1 since it is simply a historical fact.
I disagree somewhat with point #2, there is one check on their power, except it’s removed from their actions. If unions make costs increase to the point where the company is unprofitable it will go out of business. The unions will blame this on bad management or foreign competition, the management will blame this on foreign competition or high unionized labour costs. Foreign manufactures if asked, would blame this on bad management and high unionized labour costs (or take the credit for being better managers.)
Point #3 I also agree with. That sort of behavior is what I was referring to where I think that unions should start to act as labour brokers where by hiring union workers, management is assured that they will perform to some minimum standard. Of course in practice this would be highly subjective, but there are always some workers that everyone knows are shirking their duties and misusing the power of the union. The best union reps that I have worked with will not always take the worker's side if the worker is clearly in the wrong.
Point #4 is one that I believe applies to all special interest groups be they unions, or any other special interest group. Any special interest group will, on the theory that the squeaky wheel gets the grease be able to mount a concerted political effort and have an effect far beyond their numbers. For example the NRA has only 3 million members but is a major player in the gun control debates.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
I cannot argue with your point #1 since it is simply a historical fact.
I disagree somewhat with point #2, there is one check on their power, except it’s removed from their actions. If unions make costs increase to the point where the company is unprofitable it will go out of business. The unions will blame this on bad management or foreign competition, the management will blame this on foreign competition or high unionized labour costs. Foreign manufactures if asked, would blame this on bad management and high unionized labour costs (or take the credit for being better managers.)
Point #3 I also agree with. That sort of behavior is what I was referring to where I think that unions should start to act as labour brokers where by hiring union workers, management is assured that they will perform to some minimum standard. Of course in practice this would be highly subjective, but there are always some workers that everyone knows are shirking their duties and misusing the power of the union. The best union reps that I have worked with will not always take the worker's side if the worker is clearly in the wrong.
Point #4 is one that I believe applies to all special interest groups be they unions, or any other special interest group. Any special interest group will, on the theory that the squeaky wheel gets the grease be able to mount a concerted political effort and have an effect far beyond their numbers. For example the NRA has only 3 million members but is a major player in the gun control debates.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
RDK - your point on point 2 well taken. No direct limit on power but ultimately they hurt themselves (witness the US auto industry in the late 1970's and 1980's when Toyota et al took over.
On point 4, I always end up relating to what my wife is doing in the teaching biz. If you read any of the material from the NEA (National Educational Association) it is very slanted toward getting more money into public schools and supporting the party that promises the cash to supporters. This is a far cry from engineering societies and associations that focus on the technical aspects of the profession.
The NEA spends a far less amount of their time and money on developing new teaching methods and concepts than they do in the contract negotiation/politica arena as compared to engineers.
On point 4, I always end up relating to what my wife is doing in the teaching biz. If you read any of the material from the NEA (National Educational Association) it is very slanted toward getting more money into public schools and supporting the party that promises the cash to supporters. This is a far cry from engineering societies and associations that focus on the technical aspects of the profession.
The NEA spends a far less amount of their time and money on developing new teaching methods and concepts than they do in the contract negotiation/politica arena as compared to engineers.
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1
- #8
To answer a few comments, unions don't tell their members to go out on strike, the members decide themselves, it is the union leadership that simply organizes the the strike. It is more difficult to end a strike, however. A recent case in the UK involving firefighters saw a negotiated settlement and an end to a strike, even though most members of that union wanted to continue the strike - so much for militant union leaders.
The second point about unions delivering block votes for politicians doesn't apply in democracies where there is a secret ballot. In the UK the unions founded and support the Labour party, even though many of its members actually vote for another party. Most union members are biased towards the Labour (democratic) party however, probably because of their social convictions.
Unions do work where there is honest and open discussions between the management and labour, and are usually welcomed by management as a means of discussion with a single representative person. Any negotiated change in working practices is usually agreed upon by most of the membership and is accepted by all of the membership.
They also serve to protect those in the workforce against some management who would prefer to see safety and conditions deteriate to increase their profits, which sadly still happens today as it did yesterday. Where they can go wrong, however, is not to consult with their membership, when they are often seen as another arm of management.
The second point about unions delivering block votes for politicians doesn't apply in democracies where there is a secret ballot. In the UK the unions founded and support the Labour party, even though many of its members actually vote for another party. Most union members are biased towards the Labour (democratic) party however, probably because of their social convictions.
Unions do work where there is honest and open discussions between the management and labour, and are usually welcomed by management as a means of discussion with a single representative person. Any negotiated change in working practices is usually agreed upon by most of the membership and is accepted by all of the membership.
They also serve to protect those in the workforce against some management who would prefer to see safety and conditions deteriate to increase their profits, which sadly still happens today as it did yesterday. Where they can go wrong, however, is not to consult with their membership, when they are often seen as another arm of management.
corus...your second paragraph - well, it sounds fine and I agree that individuals still vote their own conscience in a secret ballot. But in a union, you get inundated with quite a bit of one-sided propaganda for the party line and the "advertisements" by the union tend to be very convincing to the rank and file.
The point I was making, however, was not that the votes get guaranteed by the union, just that all their concerted efforts go to that end instead of toward a professional role of aiding and advancing the profession.
The point I was making, however, was not that the votes get guaranteed by the union, just that all their concerted efforts go to that end instead of toward a professional role of aiding and advancing the profession.
- Thread starter
- #10
Interesting comments, both historical and otherwise. Perhaps some contributors can offer some tips\insights on working within union environs. From the political action side, even though the rank and file members vote according to their own consciences, the union itself can endorse and financially support candidates. Which would have the larger effect. I would think financial support.
Keep em coming![[2thumbsup]](/data/assets/smilies/2thumbsup.gif "[2thumbsup] [2thumbsup]")
Keep em coming
To work in a union environment is much the same as working in a non-unionized environment.
Treat all people with respect.
Be honest with all.
Be fair to all.
If the environment is so poisoned by the past conduct of either or both management and the union so that nothing can realistically happen then get out.
I worked at one industrial plant where they had an informal policy of hiring their employee’s children who were university students for summer positions. One student returned to work for the plant after graduation, in a non-unionized position. This EIT was making less as a junior engineer than he had made as a floor worker the summer before.
This plant had different washrooms for hourly unionized and salaried non-unionized positions. One day the poor fellow was leaving the plant and on his way out stopped and used the unionized washroom. He was seen by people with whom he had worked for the past few summers and who had worked with his father for 20 tears.
A grievance was filed against a managerial person using the unionized washrooms and the EIT had to formally apologize to the unionized workers. He overnight went from being a friend to the unionized workers to having the strongest anti-union sentiments I have seen in a long time.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
Treat all people with respect.
Be honest with all.
Be fair to all.
If the environment is so poisoned by the past conduct of either or both management and the union so that nothing can realistically happen then get out.
I worked at one industrial plant where they had an informal policy of hiring their employee’s children who were university students for summer positions. One student returned to work for the plant after graduation, in a non-unionized position. This EIT was making less as a junior engineer than he had made as a floor worker the summer before.
This plant had different washrooms for hourly unionized and salaried non-unionized positions. One day the poor fellow was leaving the plant and on his way out stopped and used the unionized washroom. He was seen by people with whom he had worked for the past few summers and who had worked with his father for 20 tears.
A grievance was filed against a managerial person using the unionized washrooms and the EIT had to formally apologize to the unionized workers. He overnight went from being a friend to the unionized workers to having the strongest anti-union sentiments I have seen in a long time.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
I'm suprised that there should be discrimination in the workplace against union and non-union as in the UK it is illegal. In the US I have no idea.
I think that the problem doesn't lie with being in the union and being allowed to use the washroom but that management have their own washrooms and flatly deny those facilities to the general workforce. In kind, the workforce deny the management the use of their washrooms, and who can blame them. Sadly these demarkations only cause divisions between workers and mangement and heighten the 'them' and 'us' attititude prevalent in some industries.
The Romans had the best idea where everyone sat down together. Face facts, if your suit is down around your ankles, we all look the same.
I think that the problem doesn't lie with being in the union and being allowed to use the washroom but that management have their own washrooms and flatly deny those facilities to the general workforce. In kind, the workforce deny the management the use of their washrooms, and who can blame them. Sadly these demarkations only cause divisions between workers and mangement and heighten the 'them' and 'us' attititude prevalent in some industries.
The Romans had the best idea where everyone sat down together. Face facts, if your suit is down around your ankles, we all look the same.
- Thread starter
- #13
Corus,
I have heard that in some cases, a union can be very agressive when it came to protecting their "turf". I had a colleague (his story) who had several grievances filed against him because he went and retrieved a piece of equipment that he ordered for evaluation and set it up (about 3 hours work). The grievances filed against him were from 3 different unions, one was for helping unload the equipment upon arrival, the second union filed because he moved it to where he was going to evaluate it, and the third filed because he plugged it in and hooked it up. He about lost his job. When he order a competitive piece of equipment for side by side comparison with the first, he allowed the process to take place "normally". Two weeks later, the equipment was in place for him to test with. He was so disgusted he left vowing never to work in a union shop again.
I am perhaps hopefully thinking that tales like these are not commonplace (anymore?). If posters have advice for working with unions feel free to chime in.
I have heard that in some cases, a union can be very agressive when it came to protecting their "turf". I had a colleague (his story) who had several grievances filed against him because he went and retrieved a piece of equipment that he ordered for evaluation and set it up (about 3 hours work). The grievances filed against him were from 3 different unions, one was for helping unload the equipment upon arrival, the second union filed because he moved it to where he was going to evaluate it, and the third filed because he plugged it in and hooked it up. He about lost his job. When he order a competitive piece of equipment for side by side comparison with the first, he allowed the process to take place "normally". Two weeks later, the equipment was in place for him to test with. He was so disgusted he left vowing never to work in a union shop again.
I am perhaps hopefully thinking that tales like these are not commonplace (anymore?). If posters have advice for working with unions feel free to chime in.
Actually, his story is not too far off.
I got disciplined once because a union worker was lifting a heavy object with a small overhead crane. He was operating the the crane with one hand, and guiding the part with the other. All he was doing was turning the part over to work on the backside on his workbench. Since this was a quick task, he didn't balance the load properly and the part would have fallen, crushing his hand had I not helped. A supervisor saw me and reported me for performing unionized tasks. The only thing that saved me was that fact that safety was an issue.
A second similar story deals with setting up load cells to get force values on a tool I was modifying. The test had to be done in conjunction with assembly line operations, so the timing was mid second shift. Problem is, we would never know when specifically (day and time) we were able to perform the tests because the line may be accelerated or delayed for any number of reasons. Since we needed the union transports to move the load cells and DAQs, we missed several weeks worth of opportunities trying to schedule the equipment move. Finally, the test engineer got permission to transfer the equipment himself in his own vehicle so we could set up for testing. Thankfully, the Test engineer is the one who actually sets up the load cells (installs them on the hardware to measure) so we didn't have to wait for union crews on that. But, we did have to wait for a union electrician to come and plug in the DAQs to the wall outlet. HOW FRIVOLOUS! We stopped the line for 3 hours waiting for him to do what a kindergardener can do safely. He was supposed to unplug it too, but we said screw it and did it ourselves so we could go home. Thankfully, no one reported us for that.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
I got disciplined once because a union worker was lifting a heavy object with a small overhead crane. He was operating the the crane with one hand, and guiding the part with the other. All he was doing was turning the part over to work on the backside on his workbench. Since this was a quick task, he didn't balance the load properly and the part would have fallen, crushing his hand had I not helped. A supervisor saw me and reported me for performing unionized tasks. The only thing that saved me was that fact that safety was an issue.
A second similar story deals with setting up load cells to get force values on a tool I was modifying. The test had to be done in conjunction with assembly line operations, so the timing was mid second shift. Problem is, we would never know when specifically (day and time) we were able to perform the tests because the line may be accelerated or delayed for any number of reasons. Since we needed the union transports to move the load cells and DAQs, we missed several weeks worth of opportunities trying to schedule the equipment move. Finally, the test engineer got permission to transfer the equipment himself in his own vehicle so we could set up for testing. Thankfully, the Test engineer is the one who actually sets up the load cells (installs them on the hardware to measure) so we didn't have to wait for union crews on that. But, we did have to wait for a union electrician to come and plug in the DAQs to the wall outlet. HOW FRIVOLOUS! We stopped the line for 3 hours waiting for him to do what a kindergardener can do safely. He was supposed to unplug it too, but we said screw it and did it ourselves so we could go home. Thankfully, no one reported us for that.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
Luckily I have never had the kind of first hand experiences that PSE and Swertel describe. I do not work in a manufacturing envirionment and would not want to. I have too many friends who have come close to losing their jobs due to union complaints for actually touching a part.
The examples I've heard about union members and the filing of these complaints has really turned me against unions in general. I would never take a job where I had to walk on eggshells every day in fear that some union member would complain and get me fired.
The examples I've heard about union members and the filing of these complaints has really turned me against unions in general. I would never take a job where I had to walk on eggshells every day in fear that some union member would complain and get me fired.
I think it should be remembered that where demarcation exists and unions have their 'turf' it is because management have agreed to this, and in some cases insisted on it. The reason is safety. A job may take only a few minutes but it can only take a split second to injure someone. Letting any untrained person do a job can lead to accidents or death. This also leads to the company being sued for malpractice or negligence, which in the US is something not to be dismissed, I hear. This could also lead to the closure of the company and subsequent loss of jobs. There will always be silly examples of someone refusing to do a simple job, however the principle is sound and should be adhered to if you all want to keep your jobs, and lives.
Keep in mind that "union" is a collective and "union members" are human beings, like you and me, who belong to that collective. I worked 11 years in a union shop. I will acknowledge that there good and bad people who were union.
Typically the bad people were either distrustful of management/white collar (often for good reason), or else they were just unpleasant in general (and other union members disliked them as much as we did).
The good union guys were great to work with, but knew the system. I worked with a test technician for 6 years whom everybody in my department highly respected (and treated that way). It was interesting that our opinions of him were in contrast to some engineers' opinions of him at times--some thought he was a first-rate jerk. Why? Because they treated him like a monkey, instead of the bright guy that he was. He had an easy response for them--kill them with red tape. While the rude engineers were filling out their (contract-required) paperwork and grumbling, we coasted to the front of the line. George took care of the paperwork for us (he didn't have to by contract; he liked us and wanted to repay our kindness in the most direct way he could).
In short, treat people with respect (as Rick suggests).
One note--I do not mean to imply that any people with negative stories were not respectful; I'm just relating my own experience.
Brad
Typically the bad people were either distrustful of management/white collar (often for good reason), or else they were just unpleasant in general (and other union members disliked them as much as we did).
The good union guys were great to work with, but knew the system. I worked with a test technician for 6 years whom everybody in my department highly respected (and treated that way). It was interesting that our opinions of him were in contrast to some engineers' opinions of him at times--some thought he was a first-rate jerk. Why? Because they treated him like a monkey, instead of the bright guy that he was. He had an easy response for them--kill them with red tape. While the rude engineers were filling out their (contract-required) paperwork and grumbling, we coasted to the front of the line. George took care of the paperwork for us (he didn't have to by contract; he liked us and wanted to repay our kindness in the most direct way he could).
In short, treat people with respect (as Rick suggests).
One note--I do not mean to imply that any people with negative stories were not respectful; I'm just relating my own experience.
Brad
Brad
Some of the negative experences may be the result of other people's disrespect.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
Some of the negative experences may be the result of other people's disrespect.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
I have never worked in a union plant where there was not an adversarial relationship between management and the union. I have worked on both sides of the fence, and can understand the viewpoint that each group adopts. If you treat your employees poorly, there will be repercussions. An example of this is a strike. During strikes, the members of the management ranks here are forced to work on the shop floor. They work the jobs that the union employees normally do, and working directly under the managers that the union employees report to gives you an entirely new perspective. Several of the management people gained a new appreciation for the position that the union takes on specific issues.
I myself have had more problems dealing with managers than with union employees. And strikes usually bring out some pretty volatile reactions from management. Not fun.
RDK states, "To work in a union environment is much the same as working in a non-unionized environment.
Treat all people with respect.
Be honest with all.
Be fair to all."
This has never been my experience. Not even close.
Maui
I myself have had more problems dealing with managers than with union employees. And strikes usually bring out some pretty volatile reactions from management. Not fun.
RDK states, "To work in a union environment is much the same as working in a non-unionized environment.
Treat all people with respect.
Be honest with all.
Be fair to all."
This has never been my experience. Not even close.
Maui
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I read a union "war story" recently. Turns out a generic tier-II manufacturer had recently had a union move in. The manufacturing company brought in a nationally known "negotiator" to manage the "changeover" - (i.e. Pull the union out from under the company, if he could.)
This man's name was Tom Foley, but you might better recognize him as the guy that recommended to President Reagan to fire all the Air-Traffic control guys during the notorious 80's strike.
The first thing Mr. Foley did was to encourage the payroll department to stop automatically deducting Union dues from employee paychecks. Well, it might seem like a small change, but when the employees had to start sitting down and writing out checks to the union it affected their "allegiance" considerably. Half the membership dropped. Over the course of two years of this type of "negotiation", the local Chapter finally pulled out of the company.
A brilliant, simple, straightforward solution.
Quite surprisingly, however, was a statement that Mr. Foley made in the article. He said "Any manufacturer that gets a Union chapter undoubtedly deserved it..."
He goes on to say "Employees will work for crappy wages, benefits, and long hours. You start neglecting safety and working conditions, however, and you are just asking for trouble. Keep everyone safe, and your risk drops significantly."
This man's name was Tom Foley, but you might better recognize him as the guy that recommended to President Reagan to fire all the Air-Traffic control guys during the notorious 80's strike.
The first thing Mr. Foley did was to encourage the payroll department to stop automatically deducting Union dues from employee paychecks. Well, it might seem like a small change, but when the employees had to start sitting down and writing out checks to the union it affected their "allegiance" considerably. Half the membership dropped. Over the course of two years of this type of "negotiation", the local Chapter finally pulled out of the company.
A brilliant, simple, straightforward solution.
Quite surprisingly, however, was a statement that Mr. Foley made in the article. He said "Any manufacturer that gets a Union chapter undoubtedly deserved it..."
He goes on to say "Employees will work for crappy wages, benefits, and long hours. You start neglecting safety and working conditions, however, and you are just asking for trouble. Keep everyone safe, and your risk drops significantly."
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