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TRIZ users or not? 2

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SMDme78

Mechanical
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
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Location
US
I just joined Eng-Tips and noticed that the last thread on TRIZ closed last year. A lot of the replies were negative, but I got the sense that a lot of people were offended by the idea that there could be a tool that facilitates inventive problem solving. But few actually seemed to have first-hand knowledge on which to base their negative judgment.

Question: Do those of you who respond negatively to TRIZ have experience that has shown you that it was not effective? Can you tell about the experience? I'm trying to understand why this idea is so polarizing. On the other hand, are there any members who are using TRIZ effectively?
 
Actually I was offended by the hype more than the idea, which seems rather banal.

Also the tone of the book is that of a fairground conjuror, which pretty well describes its credibility.

Mind you I have pretty much the same reaction to Siz Sigma and so on, where it would appear that dressing up old ideas in new clothes is very profitable for some.

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
 
Don't know enough to respond to TRIZ. I do, however, have a knee-jerk negative response to SHILL.
 
I had to look that one up, but I think I see where you're coming from Tick.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
 
TRIZ, at its core, is fundamentally very good. Anschultz came up with the idea of categorizing all inventions to provide a structured approach for exhaustively analyzing solutions to any given problem.

Most of the problems with TRIZ is related more to implementational issues, i.e., lack of time or money or both, such that most organizations don't have sufficient resources to execute all of TRIZ.

Additionally, most people will naturally run through about 2/3 of the TRIZ tree anyway, so there's a tendency to get bored and distracted in treading old ground, before getting to the avenues that haven't been explored. Moreover, many of the approaches delineated in TRIZ are outside of the comfort zone of many people, so they tend to gloss over those avenues, in favor of the avenues they're more comfortable and familiar with.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
 
Thanks for the suggestion, KENAT

Here's the link

TRIZ (Theory of Inventive Problem Solving)
thread404-180425
 
Hey, Tick, I can assure you that I'm not a shill. I'm an engineer/inventor, and I've been studying TRIZ for about 2 years (and I'm NOT selling TRIZ consultation or training). While I'm naturally better than most of my colleagues at invention, I have found that the analysis and problem solving tools offered by TRIZ have improved my inventiveness.

I'm honestly concerned that where "good ol' Yankee ingenuity and know-how" used to be a strength in this country, the engineers that I work with have very little ability to innovate, and I suspect that this isn't a unique problem where I am.

Even though the problems in American companies go beyond their engineering, if we don't get back into leadership in innovation, we are going to be in trouble. So far, TRIZ has been useful to me toward that end, but I wonder if it does not fit everyone's thinking style, or if some who could use it profitably are just closed-mined.
 
If you are so good at invention, why do you need another "tool"?
And can you give us an idea of what you have invented?
 
Fair question. I'm going to be purposely vague to preserve anonymity, but I will be honest.

First, I have worked in the design of custom manufacturing and assembly machines and processes for use in our own plant for most of my career, so most of my work has been considered "trade secret", and patent protection was not pursued.

Shortly after starting to work for my second employer I invented the (patented) core technology that allowed us to launch a product that our much larger competitor had been trying unsuccessfully to develop for more than 10 years. That soon became our flagship product. Let's just say that it was in the field of metrology and control systems.

Several years ago (at a different company) I was assigned to a design team that should have been launching a new product a few months after I joined the team. Instead, a few weeks after I joined the team they discovered a failure mode that would have killed the project. The design space was very limited, but I designed a small mechanism that fit in the available space in the product and eliminated the failure mode. (Everything above was done before I had even heard of TRIZ)

Yesterday, I tested a prototype that easily passed performance criteria significantly above that of our closest competitors. Until a few weeks ago, I was the only engineer in a company of several hundred engineers who even thought it was possible to do what I did. In the last case, the solution was pointed to by a TRIZ analysis of the system. Sorry to be cagey, but I work for a very successful nationally known company with more than 8000 employees--not an insignificant organization.

Why do I need a tool? I don't. All of my patents came before I knew about TRIZ. But why does anyone use a tool? It helps accomplish a job. Why do we use solid modeling, FEA, CFD or a calculator? Why did we study Statics and Thermo? Mechanics were successfully building machines before Mechanical Engineering was even recognized as a profession and without studying those analysis tools. But I doubt that most of the readers of this forum would part easily with these tools.

If I understand the intent of this forum, it is to share the benefit of our experience with one another. It doesn't do me any good personally if anyone else studies and uses TRIZ. At this point, I'm just trying to understand why something that seems so clearly beneficial to me is so opposed by so many others who could probably benefit from it.
 
While I'm naturally better than most of my colleagues...

... and modest too!

Then again, I'm better than most of my friends (and, depending on how wide you draw the circle, many colleagues)at what I do for a living... though I couldn't be sure if its "naturally" or just 'cus I was stubborn enough to stay in the field.

On one hand, I'm with those who have suffered through one too many management buzzwords with no staying power. On the other hand, I agree with SMDme on his feelings about American innovation and engineering ability.

jt
 
Isn't this, what Google and other search engines are effectively doing for most of us , by finding out what published solutions are out there for a given problem.

Enabling people to find other peoples dead ends, and avoid falling into the same traps.
Agreed a solution to a problem is harder to find when it is outside your area of expertise, but the vast body of knowledge available on the Internet today can be categorised in minutes today compared to looking through patent journals in libraries not so long ago.
B.E.
 
Having read about TRIZ (and not having taken any formal courses), I feel like Robin Williams' character in Dead Poets Society where he reads aloud from the assigned textbook which applies a scientific curve to the appreciation of poetry.

Both the poetry appreciation textbook and TRIZ seem to me to be an attempt by very gifted creative types to explain the creative process to very non-creatve types. Creativity is a talent that either you have or that you don't. MadMango has a great signature line: "Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating." And he's right -- this science of engineering is a balance of both.

Every person reading this knows someone who doesn't have a creative bone in his body. These people have a useful place in society, but it's not in engineering. The problem is that these people make their way into the field all the time. TRIZ is for them, but it's a waste. You might as well try to teach them fashion design or interior decorating.

My opinion of TRIZ is the same as Mr. Keating's opinion of the poetry textbook: "Excrement."

-T

Engineering is not the science behind building things. It is the science behind not building things.
 
Nonetheless, there is standard the exhortation to "think outside the box," but, that's not always easy to do, nor is there a systematic approach taught for determining what might be physically possible in conventional educational systems. This is what TRIZ does, regardless of what you might have heard, or been told by TRIZ "consultants."

The TRIZ text that I got in class had a simple example of "thinking out of the box."

[italic]A small town Siberia wanted to lower something from a tall pedestal (I forget what), but the there was no crane (which would take weeks to get there), and not much in the way of typical construction approaches. A small boy suggests something the town had plenty of, ice blocks. So, the people stacked blocks of ice next to the pedestal, until the ice was level with the object. They then slid the object onto the ice, and simply waited for the ice to melt.[/italic]

A contrived example, to be sure, but it illustrates a "thinking out of the box" approach, since ice is rarely considered to be a method for moving large objects vertically.

The actual basis of TRIZ is simply a compedium of the physical principles to thousands of different problems, aggregated and distillated into a relatively small number of basic physical principles. I don't have the text handy, but each of the techniques are what most people iterate through to arrive at specific solutions for everyday problems:

Iteration in time (microcoded processors are an example)
Iteration in space (array processing are an example of this)

Microcoded processors were considered to be a significant advancement in processor design, yet, it was a limited number of individuals who recognized that "programming" could be applied to different levels of the processing hierarchy. Array processors are now commonplace, but there was a time when the notion of splitting complex problems and sharing them across multiple processors was a foreign thought.

There is some "art," but most of the time, inventions are not hampered by the lack of "art," but by a simple knee-jerk reactions, "we CAN'T do it THAT way." And yet, months or years later, we see the invention, and say, "I thought of that," or, "Why didn't I think of that?" The bulk of progress in development is not from "lightning strike" solutions, but from evolution of existing solutions.

The microcoded processor was a solution to the fact that there were limitations on how many logic gates could be implemented in a processor, so spending more time with the same transistors allowed for developing computationally powerful processors. We tend to forget that in the era when 10 million logic gates per chip is a routine product, there was a time when having a few thousand gates in a processor was extremely difficult to produce.

Solutions come from everyday, normal people, every day. Our secretary, at a previous company, proposed a car navigation system, back when the most powerful processor around was the 80286, and 12-inch monochrome monitors wer the norm. She was pooh-poohed, because there wasn't the technology to store the maps, and GPS was just getting started. Guess what, she was right, and we were less than visionary (to be polite). There are thousands of patents issued yearly, and probably millions of inventions that don't get that far. These are not Edisons, they're normal people that "think outside of the box," occasionally.

These are the people that could possibly be substantially more productive, if they could systematically trade possible solutions to their problems, since they are amenable to non-conventional approaches.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
 
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