trivial question:coal train to transmission line efficiencycomparo

[Electic]

This is not a serious question, but something to debate over beer and pizza.

Having recently observed huge unit coal trains in Wyoming State, how does the efficiency of these railroad trains compare to mine-mouth plants using high voltage transmission lines? I am curious what the power lost represents as a percentage of power transported.

 

[oldfieldguy]

Cranky-

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/ng_pri_sum_dcu_nus_m.htm

October 2005: $10+ per thousand cubic feet
September 2009: $3.43

Maybe NOT the bottom, but certainly a significant change.

Swapping over fueling for existing plants is a pretty big deal, I'd guess. I don't know about up north, but I know my employer is spending a lot of bucks to move gas volume to Florida where natural gas is the preferred fuel for new power generation. I've been enjoying the idea of several 22,000 horsepower electric drive compressors on that project.

Much of the new shale sources lie to the north of my chunk of the pipeline, but we've got enough of the old stuff to keep us busy for a long time, at least until they bring the rainbows and unicorn fa*ts on line.

old field guy

 

[cranky108]

Still it isen't significent enough to start using the gas burners, and not the coal burners.

Another factor in gas prices is the mild Winters, and reduced electricty demand. With the lower demand, the least cost efficent unit are shut down first (simple cycle gas turbans).

There was an article in a recent Forbes magazine about the LNG inports from ExxonMoble. It seems the gas fields in Qutar have sigficent liquids, that it would make more money giving away the LNG, and selling the liquids. More money in fact than from the oil fields.
(sounded odd to me, but I don't know the prices for the liquids). What is the price of Butane, Propane anyway?

The water issue is probally more of an issue than what we think. In fact a local plant here is using recycled water, to reduce water costs.

 

[Electic]

Thank you to everybody for the interesting input. I've learned much even though this started out as a game.

 

[cranky108]

Don't tell us the game is over. We were just starting to have fun.

 

[Electic]

Well, I was going to suggest that as we've determined the mechanical systems are more efficient, that perhaps we could invent a mechanical or diesel/coal powerered transistor radio.

 

[oldfieldguy]

cranky--

One local LNG plant just built a unit specifically to deal with the heavy components in LNG. They figure they can make money selling the LNG, make MORE money selling the heavy fractions like ethane and propane, AND my pipeline doesn't have to deal with the liquids from this one client.

electic--

Back in the late Fifties or early sixties I remember reading an article about a little transistor radio that was to be distributed as assistance in Third-World aid programs. It was powered by a thermopile. As shipped, a candle heated the thermopile. After the candle was gone, any other small flame source could be substituted. the article specifically noted this could be dried cow dung. I'm thinking that I already get enough cr*p off the radio...

old field guy

 

[cranky108]

I remember a popular science, or mechanics, article about making a candle power supply for a radio.
Why not just use solar.

Or an article recent article in popular science using crystals in your shoes to power an ipod.

A few years ago I looked into gas air conditioners, at the time the cost was about the same as an electric model. The problem was no one worked on them.

So now they have windup radios. But there isen't much to lisen to (sort of like watching TV).

 

[rmw]

Since this thread has just about run out of steam I'll comment on Cranky's comment re: the gas A/C units. They had a real problem in that they didn't have a cold enough evaporator to dehumidify the air so even though the sensible temperature was maintained at a "comfortable" level, the high humidity in those houses gave you a clammy feel that was anything but comfortable. What someone needs to come out with is a combination unit that would do some of the A/C via gas with some via elec to get the dehumidification.

But you are in the power plant business, aren't you, based on your comments. Don't you want everyone using elec A/C? For job security, etc.?

rmw

 

[cranky108]

We also sell natuiral gas.