Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations TugboatEng on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
Transformer manufacturer 2
- Thread starter hhhansen
- Start date
-
1
- #2
-
1
- #3
I basically agree with Marmite. I wouldn't say it is unprofessional to ask the question, but putting opinions and anecdotal information out here in a public forum can create a lot of problems, since none of it is verifiable.
The best approach is to ask vendors for a users list or reference list with contact information and then call a few for feedback. This is obviously not perfect, since no manufacturer is going to put an unhappy customer on their list, but it can be helpful.
From experience, it is also important to get a list of comparable transformers built in the factory where the transformer will be built. Also, make sure you get a written statement specifying where the core and coils will be made and assembled, as well as the final transformer assembly. Some manufacturers have been known to claim a transformer will be built in a local factory, when in fact, it is only assembled there, with the core/coils shipped from an overseas facility. That may be OK, but only if they are honest about it.
David Castor
The best approach is to ask vendors for a users list or reference list with contact information and then call a few for feedback. This is obviously not perfect, since no manufacturer is going to put an unhappy customer on their list, but it can be helpful.
From experience, it is also important to get a list of comparable transformers built in the factory where the transformer will be built. Also, make sure you get a written statement specifying where the core and coils will be made and assembled, as well as the final transformer assembly. Some manufacturers have been known to claim a transformer will be built in a local factory, when in fact, it is only assembled there, with the core/coils shipped from an overseas facility. That may be OK, but only if they are honest about it.
David Castor
In the spirit of the above posts I won't name the manufacturer, or 'assembler', involved but make enquiries in writing about the origin of the core pack and the other components. If you want a (e.g.) Qualitrol part then call it out by name and type. One of our sub-contractors purchased a 'British' transformer from an old-established British company, only to find that the core pack and most of the instruments originated in India. The core pack tests ok although it ain't pretty - 'pretty' not being something covered in IEC 60076 - but the auxiliaries were some of the cheapest and nastiest crap I've ever seen. The auxiliary wiring appeared to have copper-plated steel cores, something I've never seen before and hope not to again.
For the two sites mentioned I'd not expect any significant problems, but specify maximum PD levels which will be accepted and limit temperature rise to class F for a class H winding. Heat and PD kills dry types.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
For the two sites mentioned I'd not expect any significant problems, but specify maximum PD levels which will be accepted and limit temperature rise to class F for a class H winding. Heat and PD kills dry types.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
Good advice David.
Scotty - I know. Right now, I am having a tough time "refurbishing" 3 dry type Indian made transformers, meant for VFD duty no less, in my shop. Bad core assembly, bad windings, bad materials. The client wanted a 'reliable' performance after the 'refurbishment'. I told him straight out to give me an order for building a new one. Bean counters want a Merc for the price of a Ford. When you pay cheap, you get cheap. Rant over.
Muthu
Scotty - I know. Right now, I am having a tough time "refurbishing" 3 dry type Indian made transformers, meant for VFD duty no less, in my shop. Bad core assembly, bad windings, bad materials. The client wanted a 'reliable' performance after the 'refurbishment'. I told him straight out to give me an order for building a new one. Bean counters want a Merc for the price of a Ford. When you pay cheap, you get cheap. Rant over.
Muthu
Having worked in industrial plants in India in 80's, I can assure you that there is no shortage of quality product manufacturers in India. At the same time, like in any other country, including the developed countries, there are always crooks.
The 'reputed' companies in the 'first world' who sell the inferior quality products from other countries, knowing full well that those are pieces of junk, are no lesser crooks. In fact, they are the crooks. It is not that some on the side walk sold them a fake watch!
If you want to buy a quality transformer in India, go to Crompton-Greaves, Siemens, L&T and such. (Just naming a few from memory of many years back, there may be more now).
Rafiq Bulsara
The 'reputed' companies in the 'first world' who sell the inferior quality products from other countries, knowing full well that those are pieces of junk, are no lesser crooks. In fact, they are the crooks. It is not that some on the side walk sold them a fake watch!
If you want to buy a quality transformer in India, go to Crompton-Greaves, Siemens, L&T and such. (Just naming a few from memory of many years back, there may be more now).
Rafiq Bulsara
Bad quality is bad quality - whether it is from 'third' world or from 'first' world. There are very good manufacturers in India who compete succesfully with the best from the rest of the world. My rant was about bean counters wanting the bestest quality at the cheapest price.
Muthu
Muthu
Thank you, Rafiq.
I would tend to agree; however, are Crompton-Greaves, Siemens, and L&T examples of companies whose mothership is in India? Do you know of examples of "first world" companies that produce inferior products because they are "Made in India"?
Some familiar with my rants will associate my question with my skepticism with quality control found in manufacturers from China.
Finally, should we start a new thread in Pat's Pub?
Sorry if my post was interpeted as Indian = junk, because that wasn't the intent. India does seem to be a ready source of cheap components for those who want to buy them. My principal grievance is with Western companies who buy cheap and inferior quality parts from (most notably) India and China and pass them off as being of Western origin.
Ultimately the client needs to specify what he wants: if the client just wants 'a transformer' then he'll probably be happy with the cheap & nasty type. If he wants a good transformer and wants it building in a certain way using particular components then he should specify it.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
Ultimately the client needs to specify what he wants: if the client just wants 'a transformer' then he'll probably be happy with the cheap & nasty type. If he wants a good transformer and wants it building in a certain way using particular components then he should specify it.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
- Moderator
- #12
During my years in Latin America with no codes or standards I encountered instances of reputable North American companies getting rid of their mistakes in the third world. I found that once offshore, even the best company reputation meant nothing. I won't mention at least three North American names who can't be trusted for quality once offshore.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
amptrap:
Those companies, and many others, make their top-notch products in India for Indian market for decades. Many under collaborative efforts and under technical license. Some others are GEC, HBB Hidustan Brown Boweri- ( related to Asea Brown Boweri), S&C , BHEL and such. Bharat-Bijlee makes top notch motors, used to be under Siemens license. But those products are from Indian material and local labor.
Those products are not necessarily exported, mostly because they do not need to. India is large enough market. In fact it can absorb more now.
As for the first world companies, I made my career in the USA fighting to get quality stuff installed, despite specifying quality. Too much junk proposed by 'the first world" contractors! Do not get me started on Made in USA junks now. We can start with cars...if you want. Now that is not to say that quality stuff is not made the USA. Just that junk is equally prevalent.
Much of the junks sold my 'first world' countries is NOT made in India but other countries, inclduing USA and most under their license or surpervision. A walk in your nearest departmental store or Big Box stores will reveal the names.
It just that you get what you pay for. Why would one go to a no-name company to buy a important piece of equipment? If some wants to buy cheap, that is exactly what they get.
Some quality stuff (not necessarily electrical) made in India is not "affordable" in the USA or 'marketable" in the USA by the time you add profit, freight and handling costs. That is one reason many do not see quality Indian products in foreign markets, as other Asian countries have relatively cheaper labor and different playing rules made by politicians.
Rafiq Bulsara
Those companies, and many others, make their top-notch products in India for Indian market for decades. Many under collaborative efforts and under technical license. Some others are GEC, HBB Hidustan Brown Boweri- ( related to Asea Brown Boweri), S&C , BHEL and such. Bharat-Bijlee makes top notch motors, used to be under Siemens license. But those products are from Indian material and local labor.
Those products are not necessarily exported, mostly because they do not need to. India is large enough market. In fact it can absorb more now.
As for the first world companies, I made my career in the USA fighting to get quality stuff installed, despite specifying quality. Too much junk proposed by 'the first world" contractors! Do not get me started on Made in USA junks now. We can start with cars...if you want. Now that is not to say that quality stuff is not made the USA. Just that junk is equally prevalent.
Much of the junks sold my 'first world' countries is NOT made in India but other countries, inclduing USA and most under their license or surpervision. A walk in your nearest departmental store or Big Box stores will reveal the names.
It just that you get what you pay for. Why would one go to a no-name company to buy a important piece of equipment? If some wants to buy cheap, that is exactly what they get.
Some quality stuff (not necessarily electrical) made in India is not "affordable" in the USA or 'marketable" in the USA by the time you add profit, freight and handling costs. That is one reason many do not see quality Indian products in foreign markets, as other Asian countries have relatively cheaper labor and different playing rules made by politicians.
Rafiq Bulsara
Thank you bulsara from one who is working in Indian Transformer Industry for past 44 years and who has studied Indian transformer industry from its inception ie 1936.I was also closely involved in exporting first time large power transformers from India from a Transformer manufacturer with Japanese Collaboration-50 MVA units to Tanzania in 1972and 100 MVAs to US in 1997- I still enquire about these units ( weakness of engineers) and they are going strong.There was a flood of transformer exports from this country since then.
After watching Transformer industry in various nations, I would say that the highest quality transformers are made in Japan and Germany for their national markets.But let me add, it is not that quality is there in their genes etc stuff,but utilities there specify quality,demand quality,inspect quality( remember the adage you get what you inspect,and not what you specify)and liberally pay for quality and will see to it that if somebody play with quality, he will go in to liquidation.If you are willing to pay only peanuts,you will get a monkey that will be on your back,scratching and troubling you all the time.
In India there are transformer manufacturers -with various degrees of quality and sophistication as in any other country.There are MNCs-ABB,Siemens,Areva,GE Prolec etc, respected public sector units with government control-BHEL,TELK,Andrew Yule, Large Private companies CGL(who acquired Pauwels and Ganz)EMCO, Bharat Bijlee,T &R,Vijay Electricals,Voltamp Transformers etc,and a large number of small manufacturers too.There were high quality transformer manufacturers ( NGEF with AEG collaboration,Easun Engg with Hewittic UK Collaboration) who could not stand competition and went out of circuit.
After watching Transformer industry in various nations, I would say that the highest quality transformers are made in Japan and Germany for their national markets.But let me add, it is not that quality is there in their genes etc stuff,but utilities there specify quality,demand quality,inspect quality( remember the adage you get what you inspect,and not what you specify)and liberally pay for quality and will see to it that if somebody play with quality, he will go in to liquidation.If you are willing to pay only peanuts,you will get a monkey that will be on your back,scratching and troubling you all the time.
In India there are transformer manufacturers -with various degrees of quality and sophistication as in any other country.There are MNCs-ABB,Siemens,Areva,GE Prolec etc, respected public sector units with government control-BHEL,TELK,Andrew Yule, Large Private companies CGL(who acquired Pauwels and Ganz)EMCO, Bharat Bijlee,T &R,Vijay Electricals,Voltamp Transformers etc,and a large number of small manufacturers too.There were high quality transformer manufacturers ( NGEF with AEG collaboration,Easun Engg with Hewittic UK Collaboration) who could not stand competition and went out of circuit.
Yes, thanks everyone for the enlightening discussion, and especially to rbulsara and prc. The information presented has diminished my cynicism as usually happens when factual information testifies against hearsay anecdotal evidence (I am assuming everyone is being truthful).
Also, I regret my usage of the qualifier "third world" especially with respect to India. In today's global environment I am not sure the usual connotation of "third world" is even relevant. I would suspect there are few "third world" economies left in play.
Further, part of my cynicism arises from my own experience working in many US industries. Maybe I have been blind or naive, but I have not worked in an industry where quality was not a top priority; however, in hindsight, I have never worked in a plant that was not producing for the US market. I am familiar with US companies going offshore to take advantage of labor costs and environmental laws. Another factor contributing to my cynicism is my personal experience with products exported from China that are of such poor quality I am reluctant to purchase anything manufactured from China (and off I go again).
Also, I regret my usage of the qualifier "third world" especially with respect to India. In today's global environment I am not sure the usual connotation of "third world" is even relevant. I would suspect there are few "third world" economies left in play.
Further, part of my cynicism arises from my own experience working in many US industries. Maybe I have been blind or naive, but I have not worked in an industry where quality was not a top priority; however, in hindsight, I have never worked in a plant that was not producing for the US market. I am familiar with US companies going offshore to take advantage of labor costs and environmental laws. Another factor contributing to my cynicism is my personal experience with products exported from China that are of such poor quality I am reluctant to purchase anything manufactured from China (and off I go again).
- Status
Similar threads
