Too much free advice 8

[Dinosaur]

Guys,

I have been noticing several threads recently where folks with no formal engineering training have posted questions. For a time, earlier this year, I noticed most of these were answered, "You need to hire a structural engineer." I think this is the correct thing to do in most cases. I worry that we may provide very acurate advice that is inappropriately applied resulting in an accident. I don't want to provide specific descriptions of the threads because I don't want to cause embarrassment, but I think we need to consider our audience before responding to some questions.

 

[JAE]

Dinosaur,

Eng-Tips is a site intended only for "engineering professionals" (see the upper left hand corner of the site under the logo).

As such, if you see any posts that are obviously from a non-engineer / novice / student, simply red flag it and the Eng-Tips management will review it.

 

[SCEngr1]

Great point! I agree 100% with you. In my experiences, I have found that people that aren't trained in a certain area or who are not engineers tend to greatly simplify things and assume that one or two forumulas will answer everything.

 

[BigInch]

Agree, but I find it difficult to review their credentials.

There is another problem, for example, electrical engineers asking complex piping questions, etc. and also with very inexperienced engineers asking "risky" questions here that they should obviously be asking their supervisors. What to do? Not enough specialized engineering talent to go around, or is specialization and experience too expensive these days?

It appears like there is far too much inexperience out there that penetrates deeply into the supervision and management level as well. Or these people don't like asking the right questions to their supervisors.

Going the Big Inch!

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

 

[BigInch]

Then you tell them how they need to do something and they argue with you!!!

Going the Big Inch!

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

 

[prost]

Dinosaur, what would you suggest? Even if people reveal their credentials, they could be lying or distorting their proficiency level. It's difficult to control someone's naiveity; non engineers or many young engineers are unaware of the depth of their ignorance. I have even discovered much to my surprise experienced engineers that don't seem to have any idea they don't know as much as they think they know.

I wonder, how did you figure out the question askers were "...folks with no formal engineering training have posted questions."?

 

[Ussuri]

In my opinion it is a lot harder to even attempt to judge someones level of competency when their member profile has not been completed.

I would like to think that as a Professional Engineer, someone who works to a code of ethics, an individual would not lie to other members. If we have to start second guessing whether a response is fabricated this site will rapidly fall apart as distrust takes over.

I think its best left to an individual to assess a response and its suitability. A responder is not telling them anything confidential, or that cannot be verified by other means. Unless its an opinion, which are like a**holes...

 

[miecz]

Dinosaur makes a good point. It is pretty obvious from some of the questions that the person asking is fishing for free professional help. We need to ignore these requests. I think some of us, myself included, are sometimes a little too anxious to show what we know, and maybe even get a star for it.

 

[Dinosaur]

Well guys, I appreciate the support since my post was mainly intended to cause the seasoned professionals here to read the posted questions twice before responding. Read it first to understand the question and decide if you are qualified to provide guidance. Read it a second time to figure out if you are giving advice to an individual who could misinterpret the advice and cause injury or damage.

I still refuse to give specific example out of charity, but I offer this observation.

There are posts here where someone expresses a desired outcome and a description of the current situation. The kind of detail lacks the basic information engineers use to make decisions. Engineers talking to each other will use specific dimensions, material names by grade, code provisions they can't figure out and a host of vocabulary that have precise uses.

For example:
Non engineers will say they have a bunch of wood beams resting on top of a wall that they want to remove and need to support the beams.

Engineers say they have a client that wants to replace a load bearing wall with an open doorway spanning seven feet. The joists from the adjacent two rooms of the above floor (two sty bldg) are spaced 16"o.c. and span is about sixteen feet on each side. The code requires a live load of 100 psf in these spaces. My problem is I can not get a wood joist (header) to carry the load that does not exceed the available depth defined by the client. Using 2x8s, what strategies would you recommend to obtain adequate strength and stiffness for this joist (header)?

Does this sound like an engineer? Yes! Does the previous statement? No, and it lacks so much detail that I would not think an engineer asked the question.

The other one that bothers me is the question from the obvious new engineer that doesn't want to ask his supervisor. It think it is a bad idea for us to guide young engineers from this vantage point.

You folks can all do what you wish, but for my part, I try and think about who the audience is before I post a reply.

 

[gtaw]

There is no doubt that there are some inquiries that are from people with no engineering background, yes, even some students looking for an easy way out. However, most replies are very short and do not involve in-depth analysis or explanations. At best, most replies simply steer the person in the "right direction" of what they need to consider and where to find more information. In most cases it is simply the responder's "opinion" on a subject.

It is simple enough to ignore those questions that are looking for more information than you are willing to provide.

This is the perfect site for a "non-engineer" to post a question to provide them with idea of what factors need to be considered and who to look to for detailed advice. If not here, a site that has earn a reputation and the respect of both engineers and non-engineers, where should they go to seek some needed direction and guidance? Can we direct the non-technical person to a better site for their questions? I don't believe there is a better site or I would participate in it. I applaud those people, like myself, that are willing to seek advice from people that are more competent or have training in wide range of technical fields that is beyond my field of endeavor.



Best regards - Al

 

[UcfSE]

If you're in doubt, you can tell from the context of the post, as Dinosaur states. You can also ask a direct question, such as "are you a structural engineer" or "are you a student". Even when individuals lie about their credentials, you can almost always pick them out if you don't get over excited at the prospect of answering a post before thinking about the question.

When in doubt, red flag it and management will sort it out. If that person turns out to be credible, as near as we can tell, the post will be left alone. We can't afford to give irresponsible advice for the sake of getting a purple star if it ends up causing problems "in the real world".

Good engineers asking questions that are out of their area of expertise should be referred to a professional, just as everyone else is, or red flagged so management can take care of it.

Thanks Dinosaur for bringing this up.

 

[JAE]

I repeat what I said before and what UcfSE just stated,

Red Flag it and let management sort it out if in doubt.

 

[kslee1000]

Gtaw: Applaouse! Well thought and well spoken.

 

[JAE]

gtaw - this site is not, nor ever was intended for a non-engineer or student. The purpose of the site is stated in the upper left hand corner of each page:

INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Student posting is prohibited (see below the post box where it states):

Promoting, selling, recruiting and student posting
are not allowed in the forums. Click here to find out why.

I participate in this site because I appreciate the advice and experience from other engineers to assist me in my work. I provide my advice to reciprocate.

Those seeking engineering advice, help, or actual designs (it does happen) do not belong here and should seek to hire an engineer to assist them. This site is not an engineering firm and does not and should not practice engineering via the internet.

 

[PMR06]

I agree with JAE and the rest who are opposed to handing out free, direct answers to specific design questions. I'm still and EIT (preparing for SE1 this October) but I've got to say, some of the questions posed by alleged “structural engineers” are downright embarrassing. Most of the forums are helpful and address issues common to the entire design community… those forums deserve contribution. But don't forget though, some of these “handout” questions are being asked by direct competitors. It may be ethical to help a fellow engineer, but is it good business to assist them in solving their problem, make them look good in the eyes of their client, and get rehired?

Here's my 2 cents for those asking for a handout (blunt as they may be)

Students: Go to the library
EIT's: Go ask the guy sealing your work
PE’s: Tell your client they may have hired the wrong guy

As for the rest: If you don’t think the question is valid or deserves help, close your internet browser and get back to work!

Speaking of which…

 

[RARWOOD]

The post that disturb me, are the ones where they are asking basic questions that a graduate Civil Engineer should already know the answer to.

 

[JStephen]

In a lot of cases, it is possible to answer a specific question in a general way that should be helpful to the engineer and yet fairly useless to the non-engineer. I don't think any answer ever given should be put in such terms that it would constitute engineering advice.

You might also consider if "engineering professionals" is the same as "professional engineers". If it is, then anyone without a PE should never post here. If it isn't, then you have to accept that there is a fairly broad range of abilities represented, not all just graduate engineers.

 

[rb1957]

posts i've read and written, don't tell the solution to the problem, simply because we don't know all of the different issues with the design. mostly they're hints, guides, to be followed up by independent research (and not applied "out-of-the-box").

 

[Ussuri]

It think it is a bad idea for us to guide young engineers from this vantage point.

I don't entirely agree with that statement. While I think it is of the utmost importance that a young engineer is trained and supervised I also think they should exercise initiative when they come across a new problem. The first port of call is not 'just ask someone'. We all have a supervisor (unless you own the company).

They should be able to do research using their own steam. That can be reading papers, text books or using this site. Just by searching the site they may find the question has been asked before. None of the advice given here cannot be found somwhere in published literature.

We must try and not give a definitive answer but offer lines of possible inquiry. If this site can teach a young engineer to be resourceful that will stand him in good sted for the future and I am all for that.

 

[woodengineer]

There was a young engineer some time back that had posted a number of questions regarding seismic design. As the thread continued, it became apparent that she was inexperienced. At this time it was pointed out to her that her questions were best answered by an engineer in responsible charge of that project and that this forum was not a step by step by step tutorial.



Jordan