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The saga of Ed Turner 9
- Thread starter JAE
- Start date
Strange how Mr Turner had to take legal action on his own. Where was the state in all of this? Why bother to have rules & regulations if the state doesn't bother to enforce them? Why does the burden for this kind of situation lay with the little guy? The state should have slapped a million dollar fine on the fools responsible for this and given a portion to Mr Turner as a reward.
Slugger926
Bioengineer
Thats what I was wondering, but I bet in many states an engineer would have to do the same thing as Mr. Turner.
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- #5
While this is a tragic story it does not appear that the city violated any laws, rules or regulations pertaining to the practice of engineering, and thus there is nothing for the State Engineering Board to enforce.
Mr. Turner's non-engineer superiors asked him to seal some drawings. As non-engineers they could easily claim that they were not aware of the responsibilities associated with sealing drawings. Mr. Turner advised them that he could not oblige, and was demoted (again).
His mistake was resigning. Had he stuck it out he might have had a shot at getting fired, in which case he would have had a much stronger case.
I'm sorry if this sounds cold, but Mr. Turner had a 30-year career in which he did not advance, and was in fact demoted three times. I admire his elthical stand, but based on what is in this story, he doesn't sound like a super star.
Mr. Turner's non-engineer superiors asked him to seal some drawings. As non-engineers they could easily claim that they were not aware of the responsibilities associated with sealing drawings. Mr. Turner advised them that he could not oblige, and was demoted (again).
His mistake was resigning. Had he stuck it out he might have had a shot at getting fired, in which case he would have had a much stronger case.
I'm sorry if this sounds cold, but Mr. Turner had a 30-year career in which he did not advance, and was in fact demoted three times. I admire his elthical stand, but based on what is in this story, he doesn't sound like a super star.
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- #6
Agree. Being ethical is a beautiful thing, but getting the job done is another beautiful thing. One serves no purpose without the other. He should have worked together with his boss on how to achieve what had to be achieved in a responsible manner.
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- #7
The part of the story you won't read and won't read without a lot of digging is about where Ed Turner was on Sundays and where the others were. It is an ethical question that will be denied exist. The condition exist and Mr Turner isn't the first to find out first hand that is does. If your interested you have to read about it in usenet groups. The whole thing would probably worked our differnt if he wore the right kind of underwear. If I were Ed Turner and got a trial I would want a change of venue, Out of Idaho and for sure out of Utah.
CajunCenturion
Computer
On the contrary, if religion did play a role in this case, then it is very much pertinent to the ethics of the situation.
Did religious discrimination play a role in this case? Where was Mr. Turner on Sunday? Where were the rest of the people on Sunday? Which side played the religion card? What evidence is there that religion did play a role in this case?
If religion played a role in this case, on either side, it would be blatant violation of the separation of church and state, and a violation of Mr. Turner's First Amendment Rights. I wasn't there, but I find it hard to believe that if religion were part of this case, that neither of Mr. Turner's attorneys made an issue out of it. That's just too easy of a case to make, and would be a hot potato for a judge to summarily dismiss. Surely, there is documentation somewhere?
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
Did religious discrimination play a role in this case? Where was Mr. Turner on Sunday? Where were the rest of the people on Sunday? Which side played the religion card? What evidence is there that religion did play a role in this case?
If religion played a role in this case, on either side, it would be blatant violation of the separation of church and state, and a violation of Mr. Turner's First Amendment Rights. I wasn't there, but I find it hard to believe that if religion were part of this case, that neither of Mr. Turner's attorneys made an issue out of it. That's just too easy of a case to make, and would be a hot potato for a judge to summarily dismiss. Surely, there is documentation somewhere?
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
It's easy to read a story like this and view it through our own filters, in other words, based on our own experiences. I know I can identify with parts of Eds situation. I do wonder however, how many engineers would have complained but still ended up stamping the drawings? Is this type of situation getting worse?
This discussion of course is based on not too much background information.
Regards,
-Mike
This discussion of course is based on not too much background information.
Regards,
-Mike
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- Thread starter
- #11
Whether there was a religious dimension to this story is indeed a relevent issue - but I guess I posted this article here only to indicate the pressure that engineers are sometimes placed under regarding our status as a professional vs. a commodity.
Perhaps for this post - we can leave out the religious angle - even though it may exist and may be relevent to the whole story.
Perhaps for this post - we can leave out the religious angle - even though it may exist and may be relevent to the whole story.
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- #13
Thank you, JAE, for bringing this article to us. I had never heard that story before. I find it pretty scary that something like that can happen and nothing appears to be done about it. It makes you wonder what you would do in that situation. Ethics and honor are fine concepts, but they don't pay the bills or feed, clothe, or shelter your children. Sometimes ethics can be a luxury not everyone can afford. Sure you can quit or get fired and work for Walmart or shovel something with the chickens, but what will that accomplish? I'm not advocating S&S plans you haven't supervised or done yourself, but it isn't always black and white, imho.
I agree with Cajun and JAE. Let's try to keep religion on the religion fora. There's enough ethical issues in that story. We don't have to put more in.
I agree with Cajun and JAE. Let's try to keep religion on the religion fora. There's enough ethical issues in that story. We don't have to put more in.
Then don't call it religion. Call it social or ethnic differences; they're often all faces of the same thing, in some ways just a more ingrained version of who is or isn't a member of the Masons or even the Elk or Moose lodge. I don't know about this case, but there are plenty of environments where being different (wrong face, wrong church, wrong last name, wrong set of gonads) isn't considered a good thing.
That said, Turner doesn't seem to be making any such claims on his website.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376
That said, Turner doesn't seem to be making any such claims on his website.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376
Slugger926
Bioengineer
My grandpa who grew up in a very rough town used to always say "Watch out for the young kid, or the old man, either one of them will stab you in the back in a New York Minute. YOu can come more trusting the middle age guy who has a familly at home to feed."
Mr. Turner was near retirement and could easier to afford pushing the law in this situation. His retirement probably wouldn't have ended much different, but did have a possiblility of gaining more from a law suit.
I doubt a man with kids at home to feed would have taken the same risks to make the point that Mr. Turner did.
Mr. Turner was near retirement and could easier to afford pushing the law in this situation. His retirement probably wouldn't have ended much different, but did have a possiblility of gaining more from a law suit.
I doubt a man with kids at home to feed would have taken the same risks to make the point that Mr. Turner did.
So what should Ed Turner have done?
When approached by a supervisor or management to do something unethical (maybe even illegal) what is the best way to handle a situation like that? I ask this in the context that many of us will probably work for a non-engineer at some point in our career, and will be asked to do something for the company that is unethical. And the answer that it is unethical doesn't seem to be good enough.
While I don't think engineers very often get fired for things like this (I really don't know the numbers,) there are other actions that can be taken. For example, downsizing at the nest opportunity, demotions, and so on.
It's something to think about.
Regards,
-Mike
When approached by a supervisor or management to do something unethical (maybe even illegal) what is the best way to handle a situation like that? I ask this in the context that many of us will probably work for a non-engineer at some point in our career, and will be asked to do something for the company that is unethical. And the answer that it is unethical doesn't seem to be good enough.
While I don't think engineers very often get fired for things like this (I really don't know the numbers,) there are other actions that can be taken. For example, downsizing at the nest opportunity, demotions, and so on.
It's something to think about.
Regards,
-Mike
Slugger926
Bioengineer
Probably best to print out the laws and explain the whole situation without being confrontational at first. The non-engineers would need to report directly to Mr. Turner, and make changes per Mr. Turner's direction.
How would one go about this situation where the whole organization is not having PE's sign off on anything? How would you as a new hire PE at the bottom of the organization go about correcting the problems?
How would one go about this situation where the whole organization is not having PE's sign off on anything? How would you as a new hire PE at the bottom of the organization go about correcting the problems?
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- #18
SlideRuleEra
Structural
mrMikee - Mr. Turner worked for a public entity (a city), so there are limits as to what can be "done" to him, unless his "misbehaves" - he misbehaved. IMHO his biggest mistake was to confront management WITHOUT offering an alternative. He should have prepared an "unsolicited proposal" and presented it to management outlining a course of action (most likely hiring a consultant) to review, evaluate, correct as neccessary & maybe even seal the plans. The "reasonableness" of this proposal is not the issue - the real issue is to give management a way out of the situation (that does not include Mr. Turner).
![[reading]](/data/assets/smilies/reading.gif "[reading] [reading]")
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MikeHalloran
Mechanical
SlideRuleEra, why do you qualify "..seal the plans." with "..maybe even.."? Do you assert that attaining "responsible charge" is not possible with "review, evaluate, correct"? (I'm not trying to engage in an argument; I'm just curious about the way you phrased the sentence.)
I may be reading too much between the lines, but it smells like he was already screwed with the first demotion, reporting to an administrator. Maybe some unreported misbehavior preceded that event.
If a hired consultant could review, evaluate, correct and seal the plans, could not Mr. Turner have done the same thing? That he declined to do so suggests that he had reviewed the plans, and found them not correctable, OR that he felt that did not constitute "responsible charge", OR that he was ordered to seal them without review.
Winning the malpractice case against his own attorney vindicated his ethical stance, but the effect on his personal situation made it a Pyrrhic victory.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
I may be reading too much between the lines, but it smells like he was already screwed with the first demotion, reporting to an administrator. Maybe some unreported misbehavior preceded that event.
If a hired consultant could review, evaluate, correct and seal the plans, could not Mr. Turner have done the same thing? That he declined to do so suggests that he had reviewed the plans, and found them not correctable, OR that he felt that did not constitute "responsible charge", OR that he was ordered to seal them without review.
Winning the malpractice case against his own attorney vindicated his ethical stance, but the effect on his personal situation made it a Pyrrhic victory.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
SlideRuleEra
Structural
MikeHalloran - Good questions. About the "maybe even" - mostly just my use of language, but did want to leave open the possibility that the plans could be for a "far fetched" concept that should not be implemented.
The hired consultant would not be viewed as a "threat" to the "establishment". If major changes to the plans were necessary, management can always say (brag) that they obtained "expert" advice to provide "special insight" into the problem. If Mr. Turner did the exact same thing - management would see this as an "attack" (even if Mr. Turner was correct).
The hired consultant would not be viewed as a "threat" to the "establishment". If major changes to the plans were necessary, management can always say (brag) that they obtained "expert" advice to provide "special insight" into the problem. If Mr. Turner did the exact same thing - management would see this as an "attack" (even if Mr. Turner was correct).
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