The ignition switch? 7

[enginesrus]

Does anyone know what year and what manufacture started to use a computer to control the ignition switch. I'm sure every auto now has this feature, and the start stop technology is proof it exists.
I am particularly curious if a 2009 Honda CR-V has this type of ignition switch. Because if it does then it will need a manual E-Stop button installed.

 

[LionelHutz]

Wasn't MCAS stuffed into some old 8-bit processor and had to be kept very simple so it would fit?

Would this plane e-stop have to latch off until some higher power re-engage the systems? One of the crashed flights, the pilots turned off the trim system which disables all electrical control over the stabilizer (just like this magical E-stop would do), but they also put flew the plane too fast with it so far out of trim that they couldn't hold it in the air. So, they decided to turn the trim system back on. What the pilots did amounts to the same thing as pressing this magical save the plane E-stop and then deciding to pull it back out again.

 

[3DDave]

I'm sure the disasters forum has a MCAS/737 crash thread. The number of failures outside of MCAS operation were mind numbing, but Boeing has become the central pinata.

 

[IRstuff]

There is/was thread815-487065

However, the OP was asking a more general question, which included Toyota's SUA problem. On the Prius, disabling all computer enhancements means stopping the SUA, but also killing the ABS and power steering. Asking someone to have the presence of mind to manually pump the brakes in an SUA scenario is a long reach.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[enginesrus]

This thread is all about a computer hijacking a vehicle, and how to regain control of that vehicle (air or ground). It is not a joke or something to joke about, it is something that needs serious thought of how to do it. Its all funny until you or a loved one are in a vehicle that has this happen.

 

[3DDave]

In the vehicle that started the focus on SUA for Toyota, the initial incident driver shoved on the brakes and pulled to the side of the road and then shifted to neutral. It's what I did both times (two different vehicles) a conventional throttle stuck WOT in passing situations. It was also the case that my fully manual car became difficult to stop because GM decided to run a brake line in a place that wasn't possible to inspect but was a place where road salt could cut through - but without an isolation valve to keep the brake fluid from bleeding out. Good job GM.

 

[IRstuff]

eru,

I don't see anyone particularly laughing here, but I don't see a kill switch as a panacea, because of the unintended consequences. You, or any of the others in the thread, might know and expect what might happen when a car's electronics is killed, but your "loved ones," would they know what to expect and how to respond? Will they be like the 737MAX crew that was unable to control the plane with MCAS turned off? And note, that was ONLY the MCAS being disengaged. Imagine the tumult if all computerized systems were turned off? Would you trust an aircrew that hasn't been flying by the seats of their pants to manually fly a plane with you on board?

And what happens if the kill switch gets accidentally engaged in the middle of a critical maneuver? Will your loved ones know exactly what to do because not only is acceleration turned off, but so is power steering and braking. And note that not all scenarios are served by having no gas; unless EVERYONE else on the road is equally careful, you're likely to be killed by someone who was glancing at their text messages and failed to notice that you're stopped dead in the water.

By all accounts, both the 737MAX's and Toyota's code was rife with errors, bugs, and bad coding practices. THAT is what needs to be concentrated on, writing GOOD code, particularly in the case of Toyota, whose industry has a coding standard and their programmers completely ignored it and Toyota's management lied about complying with it. Concurrently, we need to have good code checking beyond what people at Toyota didn't even bother checking. Their "mission critical" variables had ZERO redundancy, so ANY mishap could potentially change the variables and FUBAR everything, along with the fact that their software stacks were constantly in danger of overflowing, because they under-designed them and just assumed that everything would be hunky-dory, with doing the extensive testing to prove it.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[3DDave]

Ha. I can answer what happens when the kill-switch inadvertently operates. GM built a kill switch into the same car with the failed brake line. Cruising down the highway the engine drops dead. Thankfully I have a clutch pedal to eliminate engine braking, but still get to cut across 3 lanes of high speed traffic as my car slowed on the gentle uphill. It took a dealer mechanic two days to figure it out - and return the car to me with a massive oil leak from screwing with the distributor, but not replacing the distributor o-ring. It turned out no changes to the distributor were required; the cause was a corroded ground under the ignition module that hangs out under the cap. Since the dealer didn't tell me what they did I got to discover that corrosion problem on my own later. Eventually I just kept the screwdriver to remove the module and some sandpaper in the car; it was "fixed" several more times that I owned the car. Here's a hint GM - steel rivets in contact with aluminum is a problem.

 

[CWB1]

but your "loved ones," would they know what to expect and how to respond?....THAT is what needs to be concentrated on, writing GOOD code

Agreed on both points. Probably the best example arguing against kill switches is the famous GM ignition switch debacle from ~10 years ago. Most of the wrecks behind that recall didn't involve the steering column actually locking, just loss of engine power. Not to deride anyone but many folks simply dont react well to emergencies, both their minds and bodies freeze up in new situations. When I taught driver's training in the military (often to city folks who had never driven a lawnmower much less a large military vehicle) we intentionally had new drivers drift vehicles on ice and dirt, pulled parking or trailer brakes randomly, and set up other scenarios where they would be forced to think and react. With a bit of training anyone can become a really good driver, unfortunately stateside our system is designed to crank out "steering wheel holders."

As to software quality, I never gave that much thought until a sibling that is a computer scientist borrowed my small collection of engineering quality texts and returned with a rant about poor quality in the software industry. His experience as a programmer was that they dont give nearly the diligence to ensure quality through testing that I have experienced as a ME. Disclaimer: I'm an automotive hardware guy, he's an OS programmer so about as far apart as possible in terms of role and industry.

 

[3DDave]

It's an interesting contrast - to ensure that the ignition remained in run-mode the correct choice would be an interlock to overcome like there is to start the car in the first place (though that is to manage the anti-theft device.) But an interlock to prevent inadvertent shutdown is exactly how the 3-second push to shut off the "out of control" Toyota with the trapped pedal was intended to work.

 

[IRstuff]

But, how many people actually knew about that feature, or remember, or remember during a panic situation? A feature that 99.9% of the users will never use is a problematic safety feature

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[3DDave]

It sucks to have a loaner car have an emergency situation within the first few hours of operation. The best thing was the dealer that loaned out that car got sued out of existence - because they had been told the floor mat caused unexpected acceleration and they put it back to do it again. Still it's curious that a cop panicked and didn't put the transmission in neutral, but no one teaches people anything about how the devices they use and depend on actually work anymore.

 

[enginesrus]

If you read the info I posted about the CR-V's some tried to put it in neutral, it didn't matter, and with many cars, may not work anyway if there is no manual valve connection to the shift control. All newer valve bodies are now electronically controlled that means you move a joy stick to shift and the PCM TCM or which ever does the shifting. There is no jamming it in park no nothing. All your driver controls are pretty much like a video game joy stick, with no mechanical linkages. So in these situations how do you regain control? There is no way to shut it down, from the drivers seat. You have no access to the wiring under the hood.

You would think the first thing the cop would try is to shut off the ignition switch. It is evident that he had no way to shut it down.

 

[3DDave]

I would think the cop would do what the last person to drive the same car with the same problem did before he came back and complained to the dealer. The cop did have a way to shut it down but the dealer didn't tell him and he didn't read the manual (probably removed by the dealer).

Only one claim that it would not go into neutral from anything but Park (shouldn't they have to use Reverse gear first?) - from someone no doubt panicked.

Quite worrisome - claiming that the CR-V has an emergency brake. If used this will typically leave the car uncontrollable. Most cars have a parking brake.

Anyway - based on those claims, get rid of the CR-V immediately. Most troubling "I was also unable to stop my car."

I wonder if that car is still driving around.

I assume you have had time to put in the cut-out switch on the fuel pump so you have no problems anymore.

 

[JayMaechtlen]

ecu controlling starter - I hadn't thought of that, but my 03 Regal was definately hard-wired fron ign switch through the neutral safety switch to the solenoid. The wire is probably 10 gauge.

My 2016 Impala Limited is definately ecu controlled, because I can twitch the key and it will crank for several seconds until the engine catches. And this car is pretty much the same as my 2011 Impala, because the "Limited" was the old series continued in production while they built a new Impala at the same time. Strange, but they did something like that with the Malibus for a while...

With electric power steering assist, you sure don't want all power cut off. And power brakes are only good for one or two applications before you exhaust the stored vacuum. Of course the abs needs power, but you can still stop without it.
Of course, with the older hydraulic power steering you need the engine turning for hydraulic pressure. Then there are all the cars using hydraulic brake boost, I wonder how many applications they can do with engine off?

Then, if things go badly and you do hit something - no power means no airbags. Crap. Yes, if they are installed I want them to have some chance of functioning.
But shifting by wire does make me nervous. All of my cars since the 03 Regal (and including it) have had ECU control of shifting, but certainly there is physical valving in the trans that is connected to the shifter.
The ecu can do whatever it wants, but if I put it in neutral, the ecu can't cause the trans to transmit power - I think.
Now I want to look up the design of the Impala's trans and verify that...
Anyway - an electric disconnect will be needed in my funky project hotrod when I take it on the track, but really not suitable for a modern passenger car.
As an anti-theft device, a stealthy switch in the fuel pump power lead could be useful!




Jay Maechtlen

http://www.laserpubs.com/techcomm

 

[BrianPetersen]

I have a late model car with a feature getting to be rare. The leftmost pedal works a little hydraulic cylinder that mechanically pushes friction plates out of engagement when pressed with no ECU intervention, and a lever in the middle of the instrument panel works a couple of cables that push and pull a mechanical gizmocontraption that engages the gear that I want, with no ECU intervention possible.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I will be very upset when I'm forced to give up my manual... :-(

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[BiPolarMoment]

I waited to get an actual manual for my current GTI as the DSG is basically the enforced preference nowadays. I don't care if it's 'better' by any objective metric, it fails on other subjective levels.

 

[enginesrus]

My use of the word emergency brake is the same as parking brake, others call them a (BREAK)these days. In the old days it was called an emergency brake I think, it is a manner of speech. I studied the manual for this car and it does have a manual shift cable. So hope park and neutral would work. Unless the shifter is locked out some how, since some folks mentioned they could not move the shifter. ABS can and could eliminate all brake function. To install a fuel cutout switch it would require too much as far as the wire loom goes or interior. Much easier to trace from ignition coils.

 

[3DDave]

https://www.fixya.com/cars/t15168489-fuel_cut_off_switch_2007_honda_crv

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DXUeDQqwao

On a fit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpVrAk-zCFo

So, three cases of the fuel power wire being easily accessible in the protected interior of the vehicle. Don't wait.

Also

https://www.vehiclehistory.com/questions/whats-the-2009-honda-crv-fuel-pump-relay-location-287937

 

[enginesrus]

Thank you for those links. I'll have to check the wire diagram. I thought about the relay and fuse before hand. I do not want to tear into the fuse box, or cut a factory wire in the main wire loom. I'll check for the
cutout switch that would be the best choice.