terminology question--stamp or seal?

[HgTX]

We talk about "stamping" drawings all the time. Is the legal term uniformly "seal" or is "stamp" okay?

Hg

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[zdas04]

Maybe ask a lawyer that. In common usage, stamps apply ink and seals distort the paper. In my understanding of the rules, affixing either one to a drawing or document creates the same liability.

David

 

[HgTX]

No established generic term for any one of [embosser, rubber stamp, or electronic graphic] within the PE industry?

Hg

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[swertel]

Back in the day, there were no stamps. Everything was an embossed seal similar to how a notaries "pressed" seal worked. Those days have gone away and just about every state now allows for rubber stamps to impress the PE "logo" onto a document. Some states prohibit the use of embossing seals now.

But, a seal is not the physical embossing so much as the actual design of the logo. Therefore, we stamp our seal onto a drawing. In the vernacular, either description works.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I was surprised when I went to get my engineering notebook notarized and an ink stamp was used (expected an embosser). <shrug>

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[JStephen]

In the structural forum, I've noticed that in certain areas, they tend to use embossed seals rather than ink stamps to help avoid fraud.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Some states require the embosser - FL, NJ, DE come to mind - I think. Does prevent fraud. However - most public works only allow a "wet" seal - not a photo copy. But most accept faxes... Go figure?? Had my seal "stolen" a few times in the old days.

On the other hand - I think I have only been asked twice for documentaion when ordering one of my many seals. What does that say?? Anyone can get a seal??

 

[DonPhillips]

Last time I read the Ohio laws, I think it uses the term seal, as an act that certifies a document. You seal the drawing by placing your stamp, signature, and date.

Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com

 

[HgTX]

I'm not looking for the vernacular, I'm looking for the best (meaning most accepted within the industry) legal term. "Seal" seems to be the most popular verb I see in specs, but I just lost a fight to change "stamp" to "seal" in one particular document.

Hg

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[MiketheEngineer]

Kind of sounds like a waste of an argument.....

 

[Ron]

"Seal" is the more common term, short for "embossed seal", required by most statutory provisions. "Stamping" is different in that it does not connote embossing, just an inked stamp. Some states do not allow "stamping" while I believe all require or allow embossed sealing.

 

[HgTX]

Mike, don't get snide.

This particular argument came about because there are what I'll call "seals" (whether they're embossers, rubber stamps, graphics, or whatever) that represent the PE's PE status and look like the round embossed seal regardless, and then there are various kinds of "stamps" (generally in the form of rubber stamp, though in this day and age also appliable eletronically) that are used in situations that do not call for the formal P.E. seal.

An example would be that in my state, bridge design drawings are signed, sealed, and dated by a P.E. The shop drawings generated by a fabricator or detailer, on the other hand, are reviwed by the P.E.'s firm for consistency with the design, but are not sealed--instead they get the "stamp" that says approved, rejected, etc., and usually includes a bunch of disclaimer language about how the EOR is not responsible for any errors on the shop drawings.

The specification proposal I was looking at conflated these two functions. I needed to separate them out, and proposed "seal" for one and "stamp" for the other. The other person in the discussion wanted "stamp" for the first and used some more general language not referring to stamps at all for the mechanism for indicating review. At that point it wasn't worth arguing about any more, as long as we separated the functions, but I still believe I see "seal" used for that P.E. function more often, and wanted a sanity check. If there really is consistent use of "seal" for that, then we might be opening ourselves up to trouble by using "stamp" instead.

Hg

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[RARWOOD]

In the past Texas law required drawings to be embossed and signed. However that rule did not seemed to be widely enforced, as the use of sticky back seals was fairly common.

I am aware of one case where an architect used sticky back seals for work, that the PE who's seal, he was applying had no knowledge of the job.

One advantage of the use of an embossed seal was that it could not be photo copied.

 

[DonPE]

HgTX:

Yeah, you're correct in using the term "seal". That is the term that the laws in TX use:

http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/downloads/law_rules042708.doc

 

[HgTX]

These days TX will even let you put the seal on as an electronic image, but I think the signature still has to be done wet on the mylars. Then again it's been a couple years since I saw any of this done. They might have moved to electronic signatures too, and done away with the mylars.

Next time I'm asked for input on a stamp/seal question, maybe I'll gather some data on various state law references & stick to my guns. A phone conversation just wasn't the time for it.

Hg

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[DonPhillips]

I think you will find more and more states going to electronic signatures since federal law (the Millinium Act) allows it. I recall Ohio allowing it about 5 years ago and of the 8 states I am licensed in, only Michigan and West Virginia do not currently allow electronic signature or stamps.

Interesting story about WV. When they sent my approval letter with my number, I was to get a stamp, stamp the letter, and mail it back to them with a fee to be legally licensed. This way they would have a record of the stamp.

Well, I created a stamp in CAD, scanned the letter into Acrobat, electronically stamped the letter, and mailed it to them with the fee. About a week later, I received my wall certificate.

I have not checked their website lately but I remember reading they were in the process of allowing electronic stamps and signatures. Good thing for color printers since the letter had lots of colors and may been rejected if sent in looking like a copy.

Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com

 

[HgTX]

You should have tried emailing it, just to see what would happen.

Hg

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[DonPhillips]

They do have an easy renewal website - including a place to put all of your CEU's. Perhaps I should check to see if electronic seals and signatures are okay now.

Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com

 

[FSS]

"Rubber Stamping" is an insult to the engineers out there who prostitute their license for a quick buck. Don't recall an insult with "sealed" in the phrase.