Coming from oil industry/EPC, I'm accustomed to NOT having individual tag numbers for simple manual valves. In my new job, they have tagged every valve in the entire plant... V001, V002 etc. (As you can see, a very small plant!) We're going to be designing another (much larger) plant in the next year or so. Does anyone else ever tag all manual valves?
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Tag numbers for manual valves? 4
- Thread starter PetroBob
- Start date
I've only ever seen the following valve tagging:
- Valve tags indicating the valve spec in use. These would be common to all valves matching the same purchasing description so they would not be unique to the individual valve, or
- individual valve codes where the valve was part of lock-out tag-out or part of a car seal valve program so that logs and checklists could be created and maintained.
I have not seen situations where every routine valve has it's own individual tag.
- Valve tags indicating the valve spec in use. These would be common to all valves matching the same purchasing description so they would not be unique to the individual valve, or
- individual valve codes where the valve was part of lock-out tag-out or part of a car seal valve program so that logs and checklists could be created and maintained.
I have not seen situations where every routine valve has it's own individual tag.
PetroBob,
it also depends on your plant maintenance management policy and/or software...
For example, I once worked in Oil Refineries running SAP (PM module) where every single pipe, exchanger, pump, valve or piece of equipment had its own ID both as a physical object (equipment number) and as a geographical and functional location (technical coordinates, the last branch of multi-level tree structure: plant, train, system, line, sub-line, etc...).
This allowed to manage the state of each single piece of physical equipment (mounted in a certain location, under repair, out of order, etc.), to run separate statistics, to address the causes of failures (due to the function or due to the equipment) and so on...
Hope this helps, 'NGL
it also depends on your plant maintenance management policy and/or software...
For example, I once worked in Oil Refineries running SAP (PM module) where every single pipe, exchanger, pump, valve or piece of equipment had its own ID both as a physical object (equipment number) and as a geographical and functional location (technical coordinates, the last branch of multi-level tree structure: plant, train, system, line, sub-line, etc...).
This allowed to manage the state of each single piece of physical equipment (mounted in a certain location, under repair, out of order, etc.), to run separate statistics, to address the causes of failures (due to the function or due to the equipment) and so on...
Hope this helps, 'NGL
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- #4
"Does anyone else ever tag all manual valves? "
Nuclear power plants might. Years ago I worked on a number of Refinery projects for one specific Client where this question came up.
We finally defined certain criteria for doing it. But it was never done on any of the projects.
Before you start a Valve Numbering Program, you must advise the client to have a clear and meaningful purpose for doing it. They will pay for the initial work and they will go on paying for a very long time. It is time consuming and once started it goes on for the full and complete life of the plant or it is not worth doing at all.
1. Do not number any (non-instrument) valves until the end of the Detail Design phase and the Isometrics have been issued for fabrication.
2. Update all P&ID's for all other marks.
3. Take all clean copies of all P&IDs and all piping isometrics.
4. Create a Valve Numbering data base (excel spreadsheet) to record the following:
- Valve Number
- P&ID Number
- Line Number
- Valve type (Gate, Globe, Plug, Ball, Butterfly, Check, etc.)
- Valve function (Shut-Off), Throttle, etc)
- Commodity (Water, Oil, Acid, etc)
- Valve normal Setting (Open, Closed, etc.)
- Install Status (Original, Replacement, Reconditioned, etc)
- Valve Brand
- Model Number
- Install date
- Last Maintenance Date
- Last Maint. Reason (Replace packing, replace seats, etc )
5. Start the Numbering and go from one end of the process to the other makring the P&IDs, the Isometrics and the Valve list.
6. Send the Number Column of the list to a tag maker. The Tag is to have only the "Number" (no other data).
7. Update the Isometrics and the P&IDs for the added numbers.
8. Establish a Sub-Contractor to do the Valve taging
When the Tags are available and the P&IDs and Isos are ready Issue the Package to the Taging sub-contractor.
9. Have a QA/QC team Follow the Tagging to insure the Tagging is correct. The QA/QC team should be made up of one or more members of the engineering company staff and the Client personnel.
10 Develop a Training module for the Client Maintenance Staff to cover the Valve Numbering policy, Procedure and Purpose.
I hope this helps you or others.
Good luck!
Nuclear power plants might. Years ago I worked on a number of Refinery projects for one specific Client where this question came up.
We finally defined certain criteria for doing it. But it was never done on any of the projects.
Before you start a Valve Numbering Program, you must advise the client to have a clear and meaningful purpose for doing it. They will pay for the initial work and they will go on paying for a very long time. It is time consuming and once started it goes on for the full and complete life of the plant or it is not worth doing at all.
1. Do not number any (non-instrument) valves until the end of the Detail Design phase and the Isometrics have been issued for fabrication.
2. Update all P&ID's for all other marks.
3. Take all clean copies of all P&IDs and all piping isometrics.
4. Create a Valve Numbering data base (excel spreadsheet) to record the following:
- Valve Number
- P&ID Number
- Line Number
- Valve type (Gate, Globe, Plug, Ball, Butterfly, Check, etc.)
- Valve function (Shut-Off), Throttle, etc)
- Commodity (Water, Oil, Acid, etc)
- Valve normal Setting (Open, Closed, etc.)
- Install Status (Original, Replacement, Reconditioned, etc)
- Valve Brand
- Model Number
- Install date
- Last Maintenance Date
- Last Maint. Reason (Replace packing, replace seats, etc )
5. Start the Numbering and go from one end of the process to the other makring the P&IDs, the Isometrics and the Valve list.
6. Send the Number Column of the list to a tag maker. The Tag is to have only the "Number" (no other data).
7. Update the Isometrics and the P&IDs for the added numbers.
8. Establish a Sub-Contractor to do the Valve taging
When the Tags are available and the P&IDs and Isos are ready Issue the Package to the Taging sub-contractor.
9. Have a QA/QC team Follow the Tagging to insure the Tagging is correct. The QA/QC team should be made up of one or more members of the engineering company staff and the Client personnel.
10 Develop a Training module for the Client Maintenance Staff to cover the Valve Numbering policy, Procedure and Purpose.
I hope this helps you or others.
Good luck!
moltenmetal
Chemical
We design and build small plants and we tag every hand valve with a unique P&ID tag number. This is done to facilitate the writing of operating procedures, performance of HAZOP reviews etc.
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- #7
I know of one large mineral processing plant that has tagged individual manual valves - of the order of 20,000, but there could be more. As indicated by moltenmetal I believe that this was done to provide reference in operating procedures and to assist in the training of operators.
Pennpiper provides excellent advice and his list would be a good starting point for developing your system (in our case the manual valve numbers didn't make their way onto isometrics though).
If subvendors are supplying P&IDs for equipment packages, then encourage them to add manual valve numbers from a block of numbers that you provide.
Pennpiper provides excellent advice and his list would be a good starting point for developing your system (in our case the manual valve numbers didn't make their way onto isometrics though).
If subvendors are supplying P&IDs for equipment packages, then encourage them to add manual valve numbers from a block of numbers that you provide.
JohnGP wrote:
"(in our case the manual valve numbers didn't make their way onto isometrics though)."
This is the best way to provide a (Valve Tagging) Sub-Contractor with the specific location a specific numbered valve.
It does not need to be on the isometric original, it can be marked on a print and reproduced for there use and the QA/QC check group.
"(in our case the manual valve numbers didn't make their way onto isometrics though)."
This is the best way to provide a (Valve Tagging) Sub-Contractor with the specific location a specific numbered valve.
It does not need to be on the isometric original, it can be marked on a print and reproduced for there use and the QA/QC check group.
pennpiper,
I agree that it may be useful to have the valve numbers on isometrics, but I don't think it is intended that the isos will be used beyond construction and commissioning activities in this facility, except maybe to make modifications later. In this particular case, trainee operators fitted the tags in the field using the P&IDs for reference, so it was all part of the training process.
Your post provides a detailed guide that would definitely be useful to anyone starting down this track, even if only partly implemented, hence the star.
Cheers,
John
I agree that it may be useful to have the valve numbers on isometrics, but I don't think it is intended that the isos will be used beyond construction and commissioning activities in this facility, except maybe to make modifications later. In this particular case, trainee operators fitted the tags in the field using the P&IDs for reference, so it was all part of the training process.
Your post provides a detailed guide that would definitely be useful to anyone starting down this track, even if only partly implemented, hence the star.
Cheers,
John
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- #10
From a pure general point of view both 'plant' and 'handoperated valves' can be a number of things.
Yes, the thing can be (and usually also is, among other things ) a number of smaller, equal, unsignificant valves for the main process itself.
But it could also be larger, important valves, with a long expected lifetime, and significant if not able to open or close properly after long time (years) in one position.
The point is that all critical mechanical items in a process or plant should have a tag, main purpose to identify both in operation and replacement, tracking lifetime performance and maintenance cost and dependabillity.
It would be negative not to be able to track a number of smaller valves if there for instance after a periode should occur some systematic failure in the valves, (wrong selected sealing material for instance) - and equally if for instance one brand of valves differ in performance from another brand bought for another line or at another time.
Likewise it would be unwise not to tag the larger handoperated valve with expected 30 years lifetime. If this turned out OK, you would probably want to be able to find the correct information, and even more if the valve is broken after 15 years.
Conclusion: tagging is for maintenance, performance and cost control, and is a strong tool for increasing the total uninterrupted operational time and unplanned downtime. Handoperated valves is an integrated part of the operation and could be significant.
Tagging cost is low compared to benefit if done sensibly and if information gathering and coding are planned properly by skilled engineers.
gerhardl, you wrote:
"Tagging cost is low compared to benefit if done sensibly and if information gathering and coding are planned properly by skilled engineers."
Yes! that is very important. Client/owners of process plants must recognize that you do not just "Tag" a valve. You must develop and institute an ongoing program of collecting and managing the data that relates to the valve in each specific location. This includes ALL the big valves and ALL the little (high point vent valves and low point drain valves).
JohnGP, you wrote:
"I don't think it is intended that the isos will be used... "
The P&IDs do not show the high point vents or low point drains. These valves only show on the isometrics of most EPC contractors deliverables. These small valves also need to be located, tagged and the respective data managed.
"Tagging cost is low compared to benefit if done sensibly and if information gathering and coding are planned properly by skilled engineers."
Yes! that is very important. Client/owners of process plants must recognize that you do not just "Tag" a valve. You must develop and institute an ongoing program of collecting and managing the data that relates to the valve in each specific location. This includes ALL the big valves and ALL the little (high point vent valves and low point drain valves).
JohnGP, you wrote:
"I don't think it is intended that the isos will be used... "
The P&IDs do not show the high point vents or low point drains. These valves only show on the isometrics of most EPC contractors deliverables. These small valves also need to be located, tagged and the respective data managed.
pennpiper,
I see where you are coming from, and agree that the isos will show the actual physical location of the high point vents and low point drains, but in our case these valves (and any specific associated pipe routing requirements) were also indicated on the P&IDs. This may have been an iterative process, but the P&IDs and isometrics were produced in the same office, so that was easily done.
I see where you are coming from, and agree that the isos will show the actual physical location of the high point vents and low point drains, but in our case these valves (and any specific associated pipe routing requirements) were also indicated on the P&IDs. This may have been an iterative process, but the P&IDs and isometrics were produced in the same office, so that was easily done.
JohnGP,
This is a first for me.
You are the first and only person (in my more than fifty years of working in piping) to say they show Hydrotest vents and drains on the P&IDs.
It just goes to show that one is never to old to learn something new.
This is a first for me.
You are the first and only person (in my more than fifty years of working in piping) to say they show Hydrotest vents and drains on the P&IDs.
It just goes to show that one is never to old to learn something new.
Well, let's not get too excited. The high point vents and drains that I'm thinking of had valves that remained in place and were thus indicated on the P&IDs. Likely to be a process reason for their existence as well. Such openings that were only required for hydrotest were either blinded if flanged, or if screwed, plugged and seal welded - i.e. not valved and not shown on P&IDs.
I'm not sure that I will make it to 50 years in the engineering game, but in my (heading for) 40 years, this is the first plant I have seen with every manual valve tagged. I'm sure there will be other firsts along the way.
I'm not sure that I will make it to 50 years in the engineering game, but in my (heading for) 40 years, this is the first plant I have seen with every manual valve tagged. I'm sure there will be other firsts along the way.
Other industries where all valves are tagged, Pharmaceutical for reasons of installation qualification, traceability etc, Dairy HACCAP and operating procedures, Mining and mineral, operating procedures, safety and isolations. So in my experience it is quite common to tag all valves.
Mark Hutton
Mark Hutton
- Thread starter
- #16
One more thought on this subject.
When valve tagging is used for operational or safety instructions you need to consider that you are not tagging the valve itself, you are really tagging the valve location.
Say you have tagged the "Valves" and then have written a very elaborate operating instruction/procedure. Then you trained all three shifts and they have worked for five years. All the operators know where valve V10-0945 is and what it is for.
Now, let's say the valve at the V10-0945 location fails for some reason and is replaced.
If you keep the same valve (location) number then you do not need to revise the operating instructions.
However,if you change the valve number to a new number (V10-9937) then you not only need to revise the operating instructions but you also need to do some retraining of the operators.
When valve tagging is used for operational or safety instructions you need to consider that you are not tagging the valve itself, you are really tagging the valve location.
Say you have tagged the "Valves" and then have written a very elaborate operating instruction/procedure. Then you trained all three shifts and they have worked for five years. All the operators know where valve V10-0945 is and what it is for.
Now, let's say the valve at the V10-0945 location fails for some reason and is replaced.
If you keep the same valve (location) number then you do not need to revise the operating instructions.
However,if you change the valve number to a new number (V10-9937) then you not only need to revise the operating instructions but you also need to do some retraining of the operators.
Even in the upstream oil and gas business sector, it is common for the startup and commissioning team to label every manual valve. This may be another layer on the AutoCAD files or some other informal tagging and not the normal P&ID representation. However, during startup sequencing, many use a procedure that requires checking and tagging the status of every valve. This includes the gauge glass valves, standpipe valves etc. It is uncommon for the home office design team to accommodate the startup crew. ![[neutral]](/data/assets/smilies/neutral.gif "[neutral] [neutral]")
(I looked for a smiley face with a hard hat)
(I looked for a smiley face with a hard hat)
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- #19
I can say that as mentioned above, "all" the valves in the nuclear power plants are tagged. And not just in the 'nuclear' systems, but also in the balance of plant, down to the service air, auxiliary steam, even potable water systems. I was at one plant in the mid 1980s where large parts of the instrument air system had no P&ID and no valve numbers, so an effort was made to create these. The driving forces are (1) the heavy emphasis on 'verbatim procedure compliance' and (2) accurate equipment tagout for maintenance. Additional benefits include tracking equipment performance & general configuration control. As mentioned above, it is the location that's tagged, not the specific valve itself (though they may also be tagged to indicate purchase order etc., and that tag would obviously stay with the valve itself if it is removed).
Finally, we rely on the isometric drawings for alot of info that isn't on the P&IDs (support location & numbers, field weld info, etc etc...) though there is piping without isometrics (small field run lines, etc.) The plant engineering staff generally keep the iso's as well as the P&IDs updated as modifications are made.
Finally, we rely on the isometric drawings for alot of info that isn't on the P&IDs (support location & numbers, field weld info, etc etc...) though there is piping without isometrics (small field run lines, etc.) The plant engineering staff generally keep the iso's as well as the P&IDs updated as modifications are made.
I'll echo gmax's comment: All valves are normally tagged in nuclear plants. When they aren't (and it has happened), invariably somebody closes the wrong one, a safety system becomes inoperable, and things go downhill from there.
I've also seen the operating procedures for a number of systems -- they detail exactly where the valve is usually through a coordinate system. Finally the P&IDs do normally show the vent and drain valves -- even on the pump casings.
Of course, nuclear is totally different from a lot of other industries.
Patricia Lougheed
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I've also seen the operating procedures for a number of systems -- they detail exactly where the valve is usually through a coordinate system. Finally the P&IDs do normally show the vent and drain valves -- even on the pump casings.
Of course, nuclear is totally different from a lot of other industries.
Patricia Lougheed
******
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.
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