Systems vs Mechanical

[theNewGuy12345]

I'm a recent graduate with a BS in Mechanical Engineering. I'm planning on taking a job offer as a systems engineer in the defense industry. I don't know if I will like it or not, but I'm happy to try it out.

If I decide I don't like systems engineering and would rather be doing run of the mill mechanical or aerospace engineering, how easy would it be for me to switch back?
Is there a point of no return, say a year or two down the road?
Are systems engineers looked at differently than other types of engineers since they're a little removed from the detailed analysis?

 

[GregLocock]

Systems Engineering is a very useful specialisation. I'm a little surprised that they took on a recent grad to do it, usually you'd want someone who has been through the grinder a bit. Anyway if you bail out after a couple of years I think you'll find you have not got into a dead end, although you will find that many companies don't use SE much, and won't have much patience for it, but in those that do you'll have a head start.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[Sparweb]

In the aero industry, the lines between these disciplines are pretty blurry, unless you work for the biggest of the big guys where you might find a specialized niche.
At the medium scale business where I find myself, every aero engineer had better be prepared to rivet sheets of skin, bond sandwich panels, route wires, spec a hydraulic actuator, and, of course, plumb a lavatory from time to time. O the glory. So whether you do this from a ME, AE, or SE perspective won't make much difference in a company like mine as long as you're ready to roll up your sleeves.


STF

 

[berkshire]

Sparweb,
Do you mean just tell people how to do it , or get down on the shop floor rivet gun in hand ?
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

 

[Sparweb]

At previous jobs I was always amazed at how hands-on we were. At my current job, everyone is amazed at how hands-on I am.
Same job description for both jobs.
But most of the time, as you hint, Berkshire, it is the "royal we" that does the assembly.

STF

 

[Belgiancadengineer]

Less hands, more robots!

 

[jball1]

TheNewGuy12345,

I graduated with a BSME, and my first job out of college was as a systems engineer in the defense industry. I think this is definitely a case where “your mileage may vary,” but I can tell you that I absolutely did not like systems engineering. Like most engineering fields, systems engineering is going to be different at every company. At the company I worked at, systems engineers were basically project managers for their specific system. You were responsible for coming up with an overall layout for your system, and weighing different “big picture” factors such as weight, cost, schedule, etc. At its core, it felt like the nuts and the bolts of the job were endless, unproductive meetings. Almost no actual analysis work was required. I became concerned pretty quickly that my skills were going to erode, and if I spent more than a year or two in this environment, I would be pigeonholed as a systems engineer. I was able to find another job (internal company switch) as a design engineer which I really enjoyed. After about two and a half years in that position, I took a job as a structural analyst, which is what I wanted to do coming out of college.

To answer your questions, I think whether you are able to switch from systems to mechanical or aero has a lot to do with the actual experience you gain as a systems engineer. If you are at a company like SparWeb talks about, where you aren’t really very different than the aero and mechanical guys, then you will be gaining valuable skills regardless of your title. If you are at a company like I started out at, after a few years you might find it difficult to switch. One other thing I want to point out – I am sure this varies from company to company, but I found it surprisingly easy to switch from one department to another at my company. Most of the people in the design engineering department I switched to had much more impressive resumes than me, and I don’t think I ever would have gotten hired directly into that department. But switching to that department internally was as easy as meeting someone in the department, him mentioning they had an opening and talking to his boss, me indicating I was interested, and then his boss talking to my boss and taking care of all the paperwork. So it might be good to look into how easy it is to transfer internally at the company you are taking this new job. That might be your best option for making a discipline switch, if you decide you would like to. I hope this helps.

 

[theNewGuy12345]

jball1, that was really helpful.

I have heard though that a common complaint of everybody regardless of what you do or where you work is being pulled into lots of pointless meetings. Would an ordinary mechanical engineer really have more time sitting down and figuring stuff out?

It also seems like the general career trajectory of most people is increasing levels of management whether a small team or a nontechnical manager running a big project. Would I be prone to ending up in a similar role 10 years down the road whether I'm doing systems or mechanical?

 

[GregLocock]

You are not a helpless puppet,if you want to stay in the technical stream then you can do that. I must admit that Jball1's post did not actually sound like systems engineering as understood by NASA or DoD or my employer.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[IRstuff]

That sounded more like "Product Engineer."

There will only be a push for you to become management only if you appear to your managers as being competent at management. I've worked 38 yrs, with only about 4 of them as a low-level manager, and both were within 8 yrs of graduation.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
faq731-376 forum1529

 

[KENAT]

Or - if you decide to go to the dark side chasing the almighty $.

Seems around here management assumes almost everyone else wants to be a manager.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[jball1]

Greg,

My experience definitely seems like it was very different than SparWeb’s experience, as well as different than Systems Engineering was portrayed in the one SE class I took. I certainly want to make sure that is clear.

theNewGuy12345,

I found that the number of meetings I was pulled into and their relative value really varied in the 3 disciplines I have spent time in. My guess is that this is something that also varies from company to company as well.

When I was in systems engineering, I was routinely (several times a week) asked to attend meetings with 40-50 people. In those meetings, often only 10-15% of the content even remotely affected my system, and so it felt very inefficient. When I was a design engineer, there were periods of time when I was probably spending the same number of hours per week in meetings as when I was an SE, but they were typically smaller (3-10 people), much more technical, were usually very targeted in scope. Now, as a structural analyst, I attend meetings much more infrequently – that may be because I am pretty low on the totem pole right now though.

I think you put it pretty well – “the general career trajectory of most people is increasing levels of management whether a small team or a nontechnical manager running a big project.” Here is where it gets kind of interesting. In the end, I think you will need to think long and hard about what you want. All I (or anyone else) can really add is our personal experience. I personally have made choices that keep me in a very technical role for now, for two reasons: 1. I simply really like technical work, and 2. I had a bad experience working for a boss who wasn’t very technical. She would routinely get “lost” when meetings turned technical. After working for her, I made a resolution to never go into a supervisory role unless I feel like I have significant technical knowledge in that area.

Staying technical has required turning down “leadership development” opportunities at my company. Maybe not the best “career move”, but I’m doing what I like. As a result, I would guess that my base salary is already about 10k lower than friends who started at the same time as me, and took those opportunities. They get 5-6% raises, and I get 1.5-3% raises. That gap will probably widen.

So that’s my experience. You have to think about what you want, and what it will take to get there.

 

[3DDave]

My experience is there are two kinds of systems engineering. Also "Blind Men and the Elephant"/YMMV time.

One kind is the systems analysis engineering, such as reliability, which is technical but never seemed as imaginative as design work can be. With enough experience (and I think no one under 30 and no one without at least a half dozen products with at least some failures, counts) there is the systems analyst who coordinates the technical aspects of projects. Think of an architect of a sky scraper or the designer of a passenger jet. Neither of them could/can know all of every detail, but needs to know enough to coordinate the mechanical, electrical, structural, and specific engineering disciplines (aero or civil). They will also work with the project management side to coordinate expenditures and project schedule. Mostly they need to appreciate that things go wrong, suppliers sometimes lie, and the customer wants to feel they are right, even though they are actually sometimes wrong.

Their primary output to the other areas are clear requirements and interface descriptions. They should have a lot of meetings up front with the contributing areas in order to correctly determine the distribution of requirements and the best method for describing interfaces. They will also have a lot of meetings with the eventual users and the customer who is paying for the system. The main goal should be to limit the need for the sub-groups to meet among themselves, though that can't always be entirely eliminated. The result should be the guys paying the bills are happy about getting what they want for what they paid, the people using the system like what they get, and the people doing the design work never have a giant "Oh No." moment.

The other kind is something else with the systems name on the title. My interactions with those has been quite unpleasant as they end up as a huge impediment. The main flag that this is the type being dealt with is lack of clear requirements and interface descriptions and lots of PowerPoint presentations with vague goals that involve only telling and never any asking.

Done well, systems engineering allows creation and management of really big projects without infinite amounts of money and infinite amounts of time.

 

[IRstuff]

"which is technical but never seemed as imaginative as design work can be"

You underestimate the imagination required to make the FITs fit the reliability budget ;-)

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
faq731-376 forum1529