Stonehenge: Could You Make A Monument For 5000 Years Service?

[racookpe1978]

Just a question:

Stonehenge began to be built between 2500 and 3000 BC, or about 5000 years ago.

If you were charged with making a memorial to commemorate Stonehenge - with today's materials - so that it would be accurate to the north star, the rise and set of the sun at the solstices, the stars, solar eclipses and lunar eclipses in the year 7100 - 5000 years from now, what would you use to build a similar size and shape monument?

How would you set the foundations and material so they would withstand that long in the open air, but still be accurate to the (future) position of the stars? Granted, many stones at Stonehenge have fallen, and it is very crude model, so you'd have the responsibility of not "re-making" the rough outlines we see now, but (for example) you'd have to carve sharp, accurate edges and making the monument so the "bridges" would not fall.

But how would you do the job? If you pour concrete for the foundation, what would you use as rebar to keep the concrete good that long? Would you make everything of stainless steel? Granite and stainless?

 

[SomptingGuy]

I watched a documentary the other day about the A303, a major trunk road across the country, which famously passes Stonehenge, Roman leftovers and other old stuff.

The point was made that the stones have been moved around quite a lot in recent years ... rebuilt if you like. Lintels repositioned, etc.

- Steve

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[KENAT]

Yeah, one needs to be careful about how excited one gets about what you see as the current Stone Henge, there has been a lot of meddling over an extended period.

As to how I'd build it, well I'd look at building techniques that have been shown to last a long time and go from there.

Also, building in a place with low seismic activity, weather that isn't too agressive... would also help.

The real problem is pesky humans wanting to destroy or modify it for some reason. Not sure what you can really do about that.

Sure making the 'blocks' really, really big so they're hard to move has worked moderately well in various places. However, with the technology we have now, one suspects it's not the deterrent it was even a couple of hundred years ago.

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[swall]

To keep the meddling humans out, just put up prominent signs stating "Radioactive Waste, 10,000 year half life".

 

[drawoh]

racookpe1978,

My understanding is that the ancient Egyptians maintained structures that were anywhere up to 3000 years old. Structures can last a very long time if the people around them want them to. Most structures are actively destroyed either because of warfare, or because someone wanted them replaced with something else.

The critical factors with Stonehenge are that it is a very solid stone structure, and it was abandoned by the the time the Romans arrived. The Celts worhsipped in oak groves not circular temples. Stonehenge predates the Celts, and the Indo-European invasions. We know almost nothing about the people who built it.

I understand it is out in the middle of nowhere, so no one has leveled it and built something else on top of it. Your monument will cease to exist when somebody decides that it is a good site for a Walmart.

How stable is English soil? Maybe Stonehenge was extremely accurate way back when they built it.

JHG

 

[SomptingGuy]

JHG,

Stonehenge is passed by millions of motorists every day. There are plans that get passed and then binned to build a tunnel underneath it to avoid the inevitable damage from huge amounts of traffic.

"middle of nowhere"?

"middle of everywhere" more like.

England is a really small country.

- Steve

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[drawoh]

SomptingGuy,

It is next to a throughfare now. The people who built it did not anticipate automobiles.

Here in Toronto, Canada, there is a fancy street called the Bridle Path. Back in the fifties, this was developed with all sorts of fashionable bungalows, designed by name architects, for rich people. Most of these will have a hard time lasting 1% of the time Stonehenge has. They are being pulled down and replaced with the "monster homes" fashionable with rich people now.

Religious sites can last a very long time, at least until the religion becomes unfashonable. Forts last until an enemy captures them and destroys them. Sites in the middle of active cities get built over and over as the city's needs change. In that sense, Stonehenge is in the middle of nowhere.

JHG

 

[btrueblood]

"put up prominent signs stating "Radioactive Waste, 10,000 year half life". "

That worked well for the Egyptians too: "Stay out or the mummy will curse you"*. The bodies were likely still warm when the first tomb robbers broke in.

*or more equivalently to marauding Frenchmen: "$%&%** &$%&& #$%(&^(#$%!"

 

[KENAT]

Stonehenge really isn't that far from Amesbury or several other settlements.

Check it out on Google Earth if you want.

Sure, it's not in the middle of a city right now, however the factors that decide where large cities are vary with time.

I mean, there were few large permanent settlements anywhere in North America a few hundred years ago, where as now...

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[IRstuff]

The Parthenon is a good example of a structure that has had both destructive occurrences as well as repair/restoration occurrences, although previous efforts supposedly reassembled parts incorrectly.

So, not all ancient structures survive intact; the Parthenon has been bombed out, vandalized, incorrectly restored, etc. Stonehenge is probably an exception; while not necessarily in the "middle of nowhere," England never got invaded by the Ottoman Turks and Stonehenge never had to be used as a weapons storage building, since it wasn't even really a building.

The Sphinx might be considered to be another edifice that dates from more than 4000 yrs ago, but it likewise has suffered erosion, defacement, multiple poor restorations/repairs.

Stonehenge, in actuality, is the 3rd or 6th iteration of a structure, so it too has not really remained intact over the millenia. The main reason reason for the sarsens' and lintels' longevity is that they are basically igneous rocks, which are as good as it can get.

A potential competitor to Stonehenge for future longevity is Mt. Rushmore, which is carved out of granite, and supposedly will only experience about 1 inch of erosion every 10,000 yrs. So, 10 millenia from now, hopefully someone will verify this effect.

TTFN

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[hokie66]

I was in Athens several years ago, when the Parthenon had been taken apart and was being rebuilt. They probably built it better this time. Building ruins is a growth industry in that part of the world. Was in Ephesus recently, and they have plans to build some more ruins with some recently discovered rocks.

 

[SomptingGuy]

I think KENAT means Avebury. That's much less of a tourist trap, but similarly fascinating, historically.

- Steve

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[zeusfaber]

No, I think KENAT does mean Amesbury - the small town closest to Stonehenge.

For my money, Avebury is the more impressive monument.

For a serious attempt at concept design for a monument to last that long, try Googling "Sandia 92-1382"

A.

 

[BJC]

These guys are building a 10,000 year clock. There may be another long clock project going on.
How would you do it?

http://longnow.org/clock/

 

[jmw]

The SPhynx showed the problem with building large. The Turks used it for an artillery target (I think it was their ammunition that blew up in the Parthenon).

On the plus side it is a great benefit that modern construction will barely last the lives of the owners.

Thing is, Stonehenge was in the middle of nowhere - when it was built - by today's standards that is.
Reminds me of the American tourists visiting Windsor castle. "Gee that's real cute but why did they build it so near the airport?"

There are a number of chemical plants along the Thames that were built on marshland that no one wanted. Encroachment means that today they are surrounded by housing stuffed full of idiots complaining to their MPs that the chemical plant is too close to their homes.

JMW

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[KENAT]

I mean Amesbury, just look on the map, it's walking distance from Stonehenge I believe.

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[GregLocock]

Snarky star to zeusfaber for the sandia ref.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[msquared48]

Referring to the OP's question - yes - have had it for years in the states here - it's called a "Twinkie".

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
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Motivation: Don't ask

 

[berkshire]

So you build a monument like this today, with explosives, waterjet rock cutters, diamond saws, a few multi wheel low loaders and a couple of 500 ton cranes. Plus back hoes, bull dozers and other earth movers.
Then we go through another dark age and all knowlege of these tools disappears. what do you think future generations would do?
Would they speculate as we do, as to how these things were done?
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor

 

[SomptingGuy]

Amesbury/Avebury/Stonehenge, whatever...

Several years ago I was sharing a house with a "recreational" smoker and we visited all these places in one afternoon. Or was it one weekend? Where did I leave that car?

- Steve

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