Stolen Valour 2

[drawoh]

Or should I spell it "Valor"?

Lying About Earning War Medals Is Protected Speech, Justices Rule.

How could this affect someone claiming to be a Professional Engineer?

--
JHG

 

[JohnRBaker]

Two totally different situations.

John R. Baker, P.E.
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[jmcoope3]

I'm honestly more upset that no one looked into that claim... they don't give out many of those.

If he got away with lying about being a doctor, and got a job on a medical advisory board because of it and got away with it, we'd have a bigger issue.

 

[urgross]

I agree with the decision, it makes perfect sense from the self-preservation aspect of all politicians. Can you imagine what it would be like to have to jail nearly all politicians after election campaigns for making false statements as to what they say they have done? On the othr hand, that would only apply to the winners, since the losers received no benefit from lying out the seat of their pants.

 

[IRstuff]

But the original didn't just apply to politicians; it just happened that the case that went to SCOTUS involved a pol. There are plenty of people trying to claim that they were Navy SEALs.

The difference with PEs is the assumption that when you claim to be a PE, you are automatically offering engineering services to the public, which requires registration.

Campaign promises are another animal altogether, since they are future possibilities, and the Congress preventing you from making good on your promise doesn't make you a liar, or even a poor president. To claim performing an action in the past is a lie. And the whole point of free speech is that you can say pretty much anything you want, within certain bounds.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[urgross]

Also, registration as a professional is generally covered under State law. In my State, performing actions deemed to belong to the medical profession while not registered will run you afoul of State statute.

I was specifically referring to misrepresentations of past performance on the part of politicians to specifically embellish their record in order to be elected. Yes, it is a lie; no it is not prosecuted. Unless, of course, you embellished your record by stating you received military honors. That type of lie was very prominent after WWII, a la Joe McCarthy. It was never prosecuted, or even illegal.

Promise of future performance would be different, otherwise a lot of lounge lizards could be thrown in jail, either directly from the bar room or from the computer seat while on a dating site. As wedding vows are recogized social contract and contract, how many adulterers get 1 year in prison or a fine?

The decision reads, to me, the same as many prior cases built on the Contracts clause, which predates the Constitution. Taken under that clause, it could be prosecuted.

 

[drawoh]

Two totally different situations.

I don't see a difference, unless one of them is offering engineering services. If someone claims to be a navy SEAL or a Professional Engineer in an attempt to get elected, or laid, or put in charge of mall security, or in charge of setting off explosives underwater...

I am not talking about ethics here. I am talking law. SCOTUS probably all agree the guy is scum.

--
JHG

 

[JohnRBaker]

The point I was trying to make was the fact that a PE has to be licensed by the state and therefore lying about it could be in violation of that state's satutues, while lying about something like a military award violates only one's honor and will at best be seen as an insult to those who deserve that same award, but, as the court just ruled, federal or state authorities can do nothing about it except to publicly expose the lie and hope that the humiliation will suffice as a punishment and/or as an incentive to cease & desist.

John R. Baker, P.E.
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[patprimmer]

For such people, shame is not a punishment as such people have no shame.

Regards
Pat
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[Comcokid]

The Supreme Court (Subprime Court?) ruling begins to open up a real can of worms. Could one now begin to make false claims on a resume, and if not hired, or fired later then could claim that their freedom of speech was violated?

Now, the recent Supreme Court ruled on the Arizona Immigration law where the decision basically said that where state law duplicated federal law, that the state law was invalid as it was superseded by the federal jurisdiction. One could begin to argue that false claims of a PE license could not be prosecuted as that was a state regulated area that is invalid due to federal freedom of speech superseding state law.

It's interesting how freedom of speech (1st amendment )is upheld more and more to where there is no moral, decency, cultural, or logical limits to its power, but right to bear arms (2nd amendment) is hacked-away at to the point it has become severely restricted to where individual states and sometimes even local goverments can forceably restrict it.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Please point out recent examples of "hacked-away" attacks on the 2nd Amendment...

Disclaimer: I'm a well-armed lifetime liberal with sufficient arms and ammo to hold of an albeit minor army (and the military training to use what I have effectively)

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
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Siemens PLM:
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To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[Twoballcane]

I think what it comes down to is that lying to have such prestige’s medals is covered under our freedom of speech, as in he can say anything he wants without hurting others. Sure, the honored will feel insulted and think the guy is a (profanity inserted here), but he did not harm anybody. It’s up there with those church people who go around to Vet funerals and spewing their hatred to the war fighters family.

As for simulating this to people who lie about being a PE or even having an engineering degree I agree it is a different case. Here we are talking about licenses and degrees that are prerequisites to a job where saying you have medals are not. It may be influential but not a requirement. I can compare this to maybe printing up or making plaques of your own fake achievement awards and honor awards. I have yet to see in a job description listing having awards as a requirement.


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”

 

[patprimmer]

As indicated in the case of "the people vs Larry Flint"

The real test of free speech is allowing someone to say something you really don't like.

Not liking and harmful are two very and obviously different concepts.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

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[TenPenny]

How can you claim that lying about military honors is 'free speech'?

With that as a basis, anyone could now claim any sort of recognition. That will make it hard for people like me, it will dilute the glory: I was awarded the Nobel Prize for Chemistry in 2003, and won the Pulitzer for poetry in 2010.

 

[jgailla]

So then, TenPenny, should you be arrested for telling a girl you're a Nobel Prize winner so you can get laid?
As long as there is no attempt to defraud, you certainly have the right to lie to people.
If not, everyone would be thrown in jail for telling their wife that those jeans absolutely do not make her look fat.

 

[drawoh]

So then, TenPenny, should you be arrested for telling a girl you're a Nobel Prize winner so you can get laid?

We are talking about brand protection here. Your free speech does not extend to you making a pair of shoes and affixing a Nike swoosh to them. The people who hand out Medals of Honour want the medal to mean something positive. They need, somehow, to keep scum from claiming to have won them.

The protection could be narrowly defined. Many years ago in Toronto, a kid was arrested for wearing a WWII medal, a DSO or something like that. The kid was treating it as a piece of jewelry. The argument for the prosecution was that if you didn't win it, you can't wear it.

--
JHG

 

[IRstuff]

"The argument for the prosecution was that if you didn't win it, you can't wear it."

That wasn't the situation for the case in question, I don't think. The man simply claimed to have won a medal, but I don't think he ever attempted to show it, for which he probably would have been prosecuted for a different crime.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[Twoballcane]

Here is a recent story that may affect us in the same way (

http://mashable.com/2012/05/03/yahoo-thompson-computer-science-degre/)

where Yahoo CEO Scott Thompson lied having a Computer Science degree, he resigned a few weeks later, but has never been charged with anything. Since he took on a salary and received payment, Scott should have been charged with fraud. But, I guess the board of directors decided against it to get the negative news about Yahoo out from the public eye.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”

 

[TenPenny]

It obviously depends on where and why you make these claims. If it's to do with employment or professional issues, it's an issue.

 

[IRstuff]

"Yahoo CEO Scott Thompson lied having a Computer Science degree"

Embarrassing for both sides, but at the CEO level, the company isn't hiring someone for their CS degree, and there would be no arrest unless the company wants to file charges.

TTFN
faq731-376