Steel Fabricator asks: do i need a P Eng for my project? 1

[markthefabricator]

Hi all,
i am looking for some advice and information on if my project does, or does not, require a P eng to be involved in it.
Context:
I run a steel fabrication and welding shop, we build a variety of stuff, mostly for heavy industrial clients. also, we do some structural steel, and we are CWB certified (Canadian certification to weld structural steel)

often, the client will dictate if a project is to be engineered or not, or it is obvious one way or the other (client says produce a stand like in this picture, it needs to hold 25 tons and its 20 feet tall = obviously getting engineered) vs (produce another one of these desks, it needs to hold a workers tools and notepad = obviously not engineered)

this project is a bit harder to call for me. it's a catwalk, on an industrial site, needs to be 28 feet long, 11'6" tall, and 3 feet wide. needs a staircase off of 1 side, and a little extension off the other (2' long, 3' wide) so crews can get closer to an actuator in their work.

i am confident i have the abilty to overbuild this and put up enough cross bracing and anchor it into the concrete well enough it'll be fine. but my question is, at what point do i need to involve an engineer? i'de had the engineering scope quoted at 7k, and dont see the need to spend the cash.

looking forward to knowing when i need to call in the pro's and when i can rely on my own judgement.

 

[BridgeSmith]

I'm not really familiar with all the ins and outs of industrial builds, but I'm fairly sure if lives are at risk it it fails, it's going to require P.E. stamp on it, no matter how much you think it's 'overdesigned'. I'm not saying you don't have the skills or the understanding of how to make it safe; only that you aren't legally qualified to make that determination, or take the responsibility for it if it fails.

Rod Smith, P.E., The artist formerly known as HotRod10

 

[markthefabricator]

there has got to be a better way to know when to call for an engineer rather than if i figure someone will die or not die if it falls over though?

is there not a hard rule for this sort of thing?

i think we're on the same page otherwise - i know i'm not qualified to make the determination - i dont know how to calculate the strength requirements / member sizes. all i can do is go off of my experience and what i would expect an engineer to specify. so it is possible that i could be wrong about it, and not be able to double check myself.

PS: i figure somebody will suffer great boldily harm but not die if it collapses lol. back to square one.

 

[IRstuff]

is there not a hard rule for this sort of thing?

It's pretty straightforward; if it fails, and someone dies, will you go to jail?

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[BridgeSmith]

i figure somebody will suffer great boldily harm but not die if it collapses lol. back to square one.

I believe there are standards for what height of fall is considered potentially fatal, and I'm fairly sure it's way less than 11'-6".

Rod Smith, P.E., The artist formerly known as HotRod10

 

[markthefabricator]

allright i can accept that.
fall arrest is worn when working at heights over 8' tall in BC because it's dangerous.
i'll run by the same logic and get engineering on platforms over 8' tall.

 

[Veer007]

I just have a question, If all steel members and connections should be sealed and signed by a P.E, You should need an engineer and hope, that most of the steel connections are delegated design (fabricator responsibility) in Canada. As a steel detailer, we can design the connections and you have to have someone stamp on them.

Most of the time, we do better connection design than what is actually required at the location which results in an increasing high fabrication cost.

Thanks in advance!!

 

[JStructsteel]

Why would you want to take on that risk and hold that risk? Charge the client XXX extra and get it engineered.

 

[DayRooster]

Do you have building/structure officials in Canada like we do in the US? Generally when codes and standards are vague then you contact them.

 

[DayRooster]

Also you mention that the only way to be injured is for the person to fall from the structure. In the event of failure, couldn’t there be people under the structure. Often collapse of a structure above is even more dangerous than being on it.

 

[GeorgeTheCivilEngineer]

Really what you want is an engineer who can reduce the steel size and fabrication complexity. Get them to add value so the $7k isn't just for a piece of paper.

 

[MotorCity]

As silly as it sounds, thats a good litmus test for deciding if an engineer needs to be involved.....if it falls on someone, could it injure or kill them? If so, then it is a public safety concern. And as engineers, we are obligated to provide designs with the welfare and safety of the public in mind. Now there is a gray area with what others refer to as the industrial exemption (or something along those lines) where every nut and bolt of every widget does not need to be engineered, but I'd say that based on the dimensions you provided, this is outside the realm of a widget. Why the hesitation to hire an engineer? Pass the cost on to the client and CYA.

 

[JStephen]

Generally, on something like that on an industrial site, they would expect it to be built for a specific live load and snow load, which implies a certain amount of design work.
You also want layout and detailing of stairs and guardrails to meet safety requirements, in addition to loading requirement.
I assume that would be anchored, and that's another engineered aspect.

 

[Geoff13]

Have you considered if this work falls within the scope of the B.C. Building Code? The list of things not covered by the Code in 1.1.1.1(2) is fairly short. If the catwalk is within the Code then I expect a P.Eng. will be required.

If you don't own a copy you can access it online for free here

 

[WinelandV]

At the risk of being pedantic, what does your contract say?

I do work for a fair few industrial clients in the Great Plains region of the U.S. They all want an engineer to design their stands/access/etc. b/c they want to know that 1) it's going to stand up 2) isn't just a bunch of oversized (that is, COSTLY) steel thrown at the wall and 3) designed to be OSHA (CSHA in your neck of the woods, I believe).

As the engineer on these industrial projects, the fabricator doesn't need to have an engineer stamp any of their work, because I will have already designed everything, including the connections.

If your client hasn't already, they should touch base with whoever the Authority Having Jurisdiction is and find out what they want to see. They should also reach out to their insurance agent and find out what expectations they have for improvements to the facility.

 

[Rabbit12]

This is an interesting question. There certainly isn't a cut and dried answers to this question.

It sounds to me like you are acting as a "designer" to your client. If there is no permitting authority that would require a PE stamp and your client doesn't require this to be engineered I don't think you are under any obligation to hire an engineer. That being said, the risk is completely on you. If something is undersized or there isn't a proper load path (vertically and laterally) that causes failure which results in injury or death I'm guessing you'll be getting a phone call from a lawyer.

 

[david339933]

Normally structures are required to be built to CSA S16. This will require an Engineer.

 

[Brad805]

BCBC will dictate this is to be engineered and worksafe BC would suggest the same. That said, in this market it is not uncommon that many fabricators will build what the owners request based on experience or matching the existing framing. We used to provide engineering for a stair builder for this market, and owners were always requesting illegal rise/run solutions. We finally stopped that work. This boils down to your company policy as to what level of risk you are willing to accept. What is the cost of the structure?

 

[dik]

In these environs, many contracts require that shop drawings be sealed by a professional engineer for design of connections, etc.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[markthefabricator]

thank you all for all the responses,

to answer some questions,

i am (currently) acting as designer on this job. the client has said "I need access to these 3 locations, please price me out a platform so that i can"

i am making sketches of what needs to be built do that. (5x5x.25 HSS legs, W8 beams, cross bracing, etc)

from there, i will give a cost for supply and install. obviously, the more it costs, the less likley it is to go ahead. currently they use ladders, and they could well continue to do that.

i am looking to avoid using an engineer because it tends to add cost and lead time to all jobs. I can have this build an installed in a month if i do it my way, and easily 7K more expensive, and 1 month slower, for the same result if i hire an engineer. I am unconcerned about the risk because frankly this is a simple job. it's only a platform, bolted to concrete. I am completely comfortable building this. i can look at plans of similar jobs done in the past and build the same type of thing and be done with it.

i think Brad805 makes my point better than i have - it should be engineered, but many fabricators dont. so if i come in $1.5x what my competition does, i lose the job. hence my question, when do i need to hire an engineer...

I do not have a contract, and wont bother to ask for one. this job is little (30K?) and it's a guy i've worked with many times before. we have a relationship built on trust..can't reference a contract i dont have...

based on the answers here, knowing that the BCBC will require this to be engineered, and therefore i would be skirting the rules to not get this engineered, i will go ahead and get this one engineered. If my client decides to go with a different fabricator with a lower cost, hopefully i can scare him into going with me and get the job anyways. And if i dont, so be it. nobody said it's easy to be ethical.