SomptingGuy
Automotive
Engineers often moan about "lack of status". Can anyone define it? I find it hard enough to even explain to family and friends what it is that I do, so I don't see how I can hope for any kind of "recognition".
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CanuckMiner
Mechanical
Getting back to the comment made by jck26 regarding "unions" similar to AMA, note that Ontario has a fledgling engineering advocacy group that has a different focus than the jurisdiction's regulator.
The PEO (Association of Professional Engineers of Ontario) regulates the engineering practice in Ontario (i.e. ostensibly protecting the public from poor engineers and unlicensed persons) while OSPE (Ontario Society of Professional Engineers) has a mandate to "educate" the public (and indeed the provincial government) in order to increase the "status" of engineers. So far, in the first five or so years of this organization, OSPE has promoted lower auto insurance if you're a member, and not much else that is noteworthy.
Of the >25 engineers that I work with directly, I have yet to meet one that is a member. I also do not see OSPE billboards and advertising promoting engineers, but I do see accountanting advocacy group's advertising. You want status...become an accountant, that's where all the groupies are. ;-)
Cheers,
CanuckMiner
The PEO (Association of Professional Engineers of Ontario) regulates the engineering practice in Ontario (i.e. ostensibly protecting the public from poor engineers and unlicensed persons) while OSPE (Ontario Society of Professional Engineers) has a mandate to "educate" the public (and indeed the provincial government) in order to increase the "status" of engineers. So far, in the first five or so years of this organization, OSPE has promoted lower auto insurance if you're a member, and not much else that is noteworthy.
Of the >25 engineers that I work with directly, I have yet to meet one that is a member. I also do not see OSPE billboards and advertising promoting engineers, but I do see accountanting advocacy group's advertising. You want status...become an accountant, that's where all the groupies are. ;-)
Cheers,
CanuckMiner
Back to the rant .... I does not matter if you have degrees and 30 years experience you will never get respect outside of those who understand what we do. I agree with the other posts that for most people this is not, and never will be, possible. I once said to my wife "why don't they have an engineering comedy show? The people I work with are very, very funny?" She said "you don't get it, you're (meaning engineers) the only people who would get it, plus it would just piss everybody else off ".
I have now resolved myself to be an EB (engineering bitch). I feel much better now that I have accepted this fact.
jck26
I have now resolved myself to be an EB (engineering bitch). I feel much better now that I have accepted this fact.
jck26
![[laughtears]](/data/assets/smilies/laughtears.gif "[laughtears] [laughtears]")
michfan
Structural
- Jan 4, 2007
- 107
Well, the movie "Office Space" was dead on for the place I used to work at - right down to the appearances of the actors. A group of us used to watch that every so often just to have a good laugh! And yes, I agree, an office full of engineers can be funnier than a room full of stand-up comics.
If only the rest of the world appreciated our humor!
If only the rest of the world appreciated our humor!
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1
- #27
Why should I care what the public thinks about engineers? Most of the lack of respect that I endure on the job is from fellow engineers, engineering managers, engineer company owner's, engineer etc. Until we learn to treat each other with respect, we should not expect the general public to do so.
michfan
Structural
- Jan 4, 2007
- 107
I worked on a project once where there were actually more PM's on it then engineers. Each PM had his/her own agenda...what they needed done was more important that when any of their fellow PM's needed done.
So, I'd get instructions from one in the morning, another an hour later, etc., all thru the day. I could never accomplish all of their tasks in a normal work day and ended up working 80-hour weeks for these yahoos (I was paid OT, I'm no fool...the proceeds bought me my house and paid off a good chunk of my college bills, and I blamed it all on the PM's lack of direction) but once my direct supervisor figured out that I was never making any deadlines, he told me that I needed to get my priorities straight. I said, "no, YOU need to get my priorities straight." And the Dilbert strip in the paper that day was Dilbert telling his boss, "You need to get my priorities straight for me".
No kidding...I cut that out, blew it up and put an 11x17 of it on my wall.
After that, I asked each PM if all the other PM's agreed that his task was the highest priority. It really shook up their department when people started questioning them. That was a fun job, I tell ya...I miss it often.
So, I'd get instructions from one in the morning, another an hour later, etc., all thru the day. I could never accomplish all of their tasks in a normal work day and ended up working 80-hour weeks for these yahoos (I was paid OT, I'm no fool...the proceeds bought me my house and paid off a good chunk of my college bills, and I blamed it all on the PM's lack of direction) but once my direct supervisor figured out that I was never making any deadlines, he told me that I needed to get my priorities straight. I said, "no, YOU need to get my priorities straight." And the Dilbert strip in the paper that day was Dilbert telling his boss, "You need to get my priorities straight for me".
No kidding...I cut that out, blew it up and put an 11x17 of it on my wall.
After that, I asked each PM if all the other PM's agreed that his task was the highest priority. It really shook up their department when people started questioning them. That was a fun job, I tell ya...I miss it often.
swearingen
Civil/Environmental
Off topic, but following up michfan's post:
I've often wondered if Scott Adams (Dilbert's author) has little cameras and microphones posted in offices all over the place. There have been many times where a situation has come up that mirrors what's on my desk calendar so well it's scary. My hat's off to Mr. Adams. He strikes again...
I've often wondered if Scott Adams (Dilbert's author) has little cameras and microphones posted in offices all over the place. There have been many times where a situation has come up that mirrors what's on my desk calendar so well it's scary. My hat's off to Mr. Adams. He strikes again...
He doesn't have to. He's been collecting emails from disgruntled readers for so long that he can write that strip for 1000 years.
Maybe we get less respect than lawyers and doctors because on average we are less educated (4yrs vs 6 and 8)and make less money. Doesn't seem like such a mystery to me. If you picked this field to get respect you made the wrong choice. Go get your PhD, MD or JD if you need your ego inflated and wallet padded.
-b
Part of the problem is that people don't know what we do.
Part of the problem is that we can't agree on a definition of what we do (without using other professions such as "engineering utilises science .... blah blah blah).
Part of the problem is that almost anyone and every one can use the term engineer (eg. sanitation engineer = janitor) in everyday conversation.
Part of the problem is that most PE boards in the US have exemptions - many industries do not required you to be a PE to do "engineering" work.
Part of the problem is that maybe, our profession is not that special?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
Part of the problem is that we can't agree on a definition of what we do (without using other professions such as "engineering utilises science .... blah blah blah).
Part of the problem is that almost anyone and every one can use the term engineer (eg. sanitation engineer = janitor) in everyday conversation.
Part of the problem is that most PE boards in the US have exemptions - many industries do not required you to be a PE to do "engineering" work.
Part of the problem is that maybe, our profession is not that special?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
keepinitcool
Mechanical
The profession is far more general and covers a wider scope than other professions. Whether it is special or not is another topic.
Many or most people don't understand what engineers do, but they surely enjoy what we can produce.
Many or most people don't understand what engineers do, but they surely enjoy what we can produce.
I think that most engineers distrust, or even loathe, the word 'status'.
And I defnitely agree that describing what we do is difficult. The best I've been able to come up with is that I cause blackouts (protection engineer). Hardly anything for most people to get excited about.
And I defnitely agree that describing what we do is difficult. The best I've been able to come up with is that I cause blackouts (protection engineer). Hardly anything for most people to get excited about.
Theophilus
Mechanical
Chicks dig industrial designers. ![[tongue]](/data/assets/smilies/tongue.gif "[tongue] [tongue]")
Seriously, many of my friends are engineers and I really enjoy that "culture". A great deal of my work is actually engineering as well, since I cross-over to design many of my projects entirely (of course, my projects don't involve turbines).
michfan, I totally agree. My last Dilbert job had me doing engineering work and it was amazingly like Office Space. I think I had five PMs to answer to. I came to my senses and struck out on my own to go back to industrial design (I didn't enjoy the strict engineering quite so much, and Dilbert Co. was farming out all our ID work to outside firms--BRILLIANT).
What use would an engineer have for status, anyway? It's not entirely practical.
Jeff Mowry
Reason trumps all. And awe transcends reason.
Seriously, many of my friends are engineers and I really enjoy that "culture". A great deal of my work is actually engineering as well, since I cross-over to design many of my projects entirely (of course, my projects don't involve turbines).
michfan, I totally agree. My last Dilbert job had me doing engineering work and it was amazingly like Office Space. I think I had five PMs to answer to. I came to my senses and struck out on my own to go back to industrial design (I didn't enjoy the strict engineering quite so much, and Dilbert Co. was farming out all our ID work to outside firms--BRILLIANT).
What use would an engineer have for status, anyway? It's not entirely practical.
Jeff Mowry
Reason trumps all. And awe transcends reason.
Part of the reason that engineers get so little recognition/respect is that the general public has this crazy notion that any time they fix something, or come up with a better way to do something that they are somehow "engineering" it. Housewives all themselves domestic "engineers". I actually heard a commercial the other day for a small business credit card that said the card is "engineered" for small business. How in the heck do you engineer a credit card?
You don't engineer a light fixture falling off the wall, you screw it back in.
You don't engineer a credit card, you give good rates.
You do engineer a wide flange column to take all of those gravity and some wind load.
You don't engineer a light fixture falling off the wall, you screw it back in.
You don't engineer a credit card, you give good rates.
You do engineer a wide flange column to take all of those gravity and some wind load.
After received a PE license in the state I work my boss suggested getting new business cards with the "P.E."
My responce was along the lines of "I'd just assume not advertise it since it's bad enough dealing with a general population that thinks an engineer (any engineer) knows everything about everything and that's gotta be true for a LICENSED PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER."
Most of the time in my fields and interactions I have an easier time when I shed the Dockers for Levis and forget to shave. Sure there are times to play and dress the part but in industrial settings I've found it easier and more productive to blend in.
My responce was along the lines of "I'd just assume not advertise it since it's bad enough dealing with a general population that thinks an engineer (any engineer) knows everything about everything and that's gotta be true for a LICENSED PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER."
Most of the time in my fields and interactions I have an easier time when I shed the Dockers for Levis and forget to shave. Sure there are times to play and dress the part but in industrial settings I've found it easier and more productive to blend in.
SteelMover
Structural
My thoughts, albeit not organized or helpful at all:
Ask most kids what an engineer is an they will tell you a train operator....
I have more American lives in my hands daily than most MD's do in a year. Indeed a slip of the scalpel can kill someone quite intimately, a slip in our calculations, well you know...
There is nothing at all sexy about what we do and no one can write a tv show about it, heck its hard to even write a book about it.
It would help to get an engineer in the white house, it would be a definite improvement over Bushy. I would like to think of the most powerful man in the world as smarter than myself.
Ask most kids what an engineer is an they will tell you a train operator....
I have more American lives in my hands daily than most MD's do in a year. Indeed a slip of the scalpel can kill someone quite intimately, a slip in our calculations, well you know...
There is nothing at all sexy about what we do and no one can write a tv show about it, heck its hard to even write a book about it.
It would help to get an engineer in the white house, it would be a definite improvement over Bushy. I would like to think of the most powerful man in the world as smarter than myself.
GregLocock
Automotive
I've never found much link between intelligence and common sense. I'd rather have a sensible president than a clever one.
There is a reasonable TV show about engineers, it is called "Engineering at the Cutting Edge", from the UK
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
There is a reasonable TV show about engineers, it is called "Engineering at the Cutting Edge", from the UK
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
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