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Standardised testing. 14

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I didn't have an appreciation for art history when I was in high school, didn't have it throughout my college days, and I never seemed to have gained an appreciation for it since those days. It means nothing to me. I enjoy certain pieces/styles of art, but the history of it is utterly useless to me... could I have replaced my classes in such drivel with something more appropriate to my major of choice, I would have done so in a heartbeat. And I have no doubt that knowledge would have carried me 10x farther than anything I have long since forgotten about something like art history. And no, it did not make me a more well-rounded person to be forced to take those classes, proof in point that I could not remember a single fact "taught" to me in that manner.

Dan - Owner
Footwell%20Animation%20Tiny.gif
 
Well, there are always outliers in any real distribution ;-)

TTFN
faq731-376
7ofakss

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529
 
Like you. [poke]

[rofl2]
 
Keep it clean guys, play nicely together.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
 
Ok, I'm sorry. I missed off '... and me' from that comment. [smile]
 
KENAT - ... Some on this forum though regard a focused technical degree without the well rounding as being effectively a trade school education....

JNeiman - ... I'd like to see less "general education" requirements and more core-curriculum classes. ...

JNeiman - ... people start to notice how NOT inferior those in the technical and vocational fields are...

Exactly why I didn't want to venture into the "politics" of this subject. The real problem, IMHO, is that universities have been turning out tradesmen by the millions for years, but nobody's noticed, maybe just because the school had the word "university" printed on the application form. There are many forces that support this, such as snobbery, greed, narrow-mindedness, and class-ism.

I do wonder if enough people really know what a university should be, and what sets it apart from a trade school. If they attended a university for the sole purpose of getting a job, then they probably don't. It took a lot of work, over generations, to warp universities into schools that teach trades, so the blame doesn't belong in just one place.

My worst education came from a university. Not because of the general education parts of the curriculum, but because the core-curriculum was so badly focused because that university did not know what it wanted to be. It was trying to be a center for research, social justice and even political debate, but then put its intelligent staff to work teaching its students technical practices by rote. Educational goals set by industry feedback. Further complicating the problem as that the institution relied upon a 50% attrition rate in the first year and 30% attrition in year 2 to make up budget shortfalls. The students that I knew who washed out were the most creative and intelligent people I had ever met in my life (at the time) and the ones that clung on to finish were worker drones. I went along with it because I didn't know any better at that age.

Enough. I just get p'd off when I get started about this subject.

STF
 
I think you miss the point. An eloquent contributor to this site claimed that an engineering degree with no basket weaving component was just a trade school. Those of us who attended university in countries where that is the norm have taken to wearing it as a badge of pride.



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
Greg,

I think I did just say that many Universities have been trying to emulate trade schools, and doing poorly at it to boot. The constant tension between trade education desired by industry versus the goal of a rounded, profound education, as would benefit society's leaders, is causing a kind of schizophrenia in these institutions. I witnessed it first-hand, and so did most of my friends, and it wasted years of my life. My own experience is from Canada, though I think the US is little different, but I can't comment on Europe or abroad. University here is, sadly, much like your portrayal in your second sentence. Very few people seem to appreciate a well-rounded university education (mentioned in your third sentence), and they are particularly hard to come by in North America. It took me until I was in my 30's to figure it out for myself. Then it was too late.

Again, it is a subject that raises my ire because it wastes the money and time of thousands of people going to university, when a trade level education is what they really want, and wastes the taxpayers' money paying for universities that have forgotten how to mold citizens who have the opportunity and talent to lead our society. I only spoke up, because the young man in the speech that started this off seems to have the wit to succeed despite all of these countervailing forces. But he will encounter the same conformist and anti-educational obstacles that he has already overcome in high school, when he does go to university.

"badge of pride"?

Figure this one out then: I have concealed my university education from my last 3 employers. I focused on my so-called "trade school" education instead. The work I do benefits from the real education I received from two technical colleges. That's what I wear with pride.
Would I conceal my university degree if I could point to it and show my technical qualifications? I wish it were, but it doesn't do that because my university was too incompetent to pass on much of that.
Would I conceal my university degree if it would show I am a well-rounded individual? Oh, if only. But the insanity of the school was so bad that it didn't give me that, either. The enrichment courses turned out to be more confusing than anything.

By trying to do both, the university I attended failed on both. If it had been one, or the other, then I would have succeeded, and not needed to re-start my education from scratch. I hope that makes my point more clearly.


STF
 
SparWeb, I'm afraid you're still missing the point.

Greg, is it coming up for your trade schools annual boat race?

Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​
 
KENAT. Have you noticed that the same two teams always make the final? And that they are mostly crewed by foreign students. Well, someone's got to fill those basket-weaving classes. ;-) (Smiley for the benefit of Mr Poe)

- Steve
 
I'll try again, with bigger clues.


So #3 and #6 are trade schools. I think in 3 years I went to exactly 2 lectures that were not hardcore engineering, and in fact it is crying shame, I hadn't realised that students were welcome to attend lectures at other faculties.

Incidentally that is rather an odd list in my opinion, it just happened to be the first to come up.

Yes Kenat, our American PhDs seem to be less good at rowing than the other place's American PhD students, on average. Rolls eyeballs (I hate that side of it).

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
I have no idea where that university ranking website gets its list of data, or what criteria it uses for ranking, but assuming Greg used his home location to search, all I see are ten universities, starting with the U of New South Wales, followed by 10 other "universities" (judging only by their names). The "University of Technology Sydney" sounds suspiciously like a technical college, despite its name. Prodding the search for the other continental groups just produces lists of more universities. The only two institutions that I can produce that don't have "university" in their name is MIT and Caltech. What was that supposed to prove?

Very well. Maybe I am missing the point, whatever it is. Since I chimed in about the trade school vs. university debate, and the OP subject is about standardized testing, then it's off-topic as well. But then, some may believe that the two subjects are closely linked, while others don't. Since I'm having trouble figuring out which group I'm talking to right now, I'll drop it. I should have just stuck to my earlier decision to stay out of the politics.


STF
 
I guess I need to ask what your definitions of "tradesmen" and "trade school." If it's what I think you mean, then that would not only be robbery, but stupidity, since those types of jobs have been declining in numbers for the last ~30 yrs.

TTFN
faq731-376
7ofakss

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529
 
SparWeb, unfortunately Greg's link didn't auto load, but if you just go to 'change subject' and select "Engineering - Mechanical, Aeronautical & Manufacturing" per the text of link (no sorting by region or location) then I believe you get the nominal world wide list Greg was alluding to.

The underlying point that some of us have attempted to explain before, to other North American members that usually seem quite quick on the up take (smarter than I for sure) but don't seem to get this idea, is that in some countries, such as the UK, you generally go to university (even the ones founded back before the American colonies existed) to study just your subject.

Sure you may have an option of a few extra language classes, maybe one class covering relevant aspects of law, accounting & management etc. but by far you'll spend the majority of your time studying Engineering or a few directly related technical fields such as math(s) & physics which in turn form the foundation for higher level engineering classes.

In the UK - at least last century when I was being edumacated - the well rounding was to have been done by the time you reached age 16 ish at which point you'd take examinations in around 9 subjects. You'd then spend a couple of years somewhat more targeted study, in just 3-4 subjects/classes typically, culminating in examinations for each subject, before going onto university.

So to us this perception that if you aren't spending a good chunk of your time at university studying the history of rock & roll; psych 101 & art history... then you aren't really getting a 'university education' seems odd - verging on ivory tower educational establishment elitism.

Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​
 
Ok that's reassuring. I thought I'd written something offensive. Actually I've just left too much out.

Different students want different things out of their post-secondary education. I personally think that an education that is directed toward skills to be used for employment is the domain of technical colleges, but if they want to, they can be so much more. A university engineering program that only teaches skills and not an engineer's place in society is just mimicking the trade school. Why should general education stop when one leaves secondary school? Take the word apart and see "univers-" inside it, as if to mean that there should be "universality" in that education. If it lacks that universality then why is it called a university?

I have experienced the best and worst of both, having attended a college where my science diploma was enriched with sociology, philosophy, politics and physical activity, and then a university where I learned few skills in the core courses but still had no time for enrichment. My college experience was good because the school was not trying to steer me toward a specific job. It was giving me a general education that would make me a better citizen whether I chose a trade or a degree. It was teaching me how to think.

Post-secondary schools of every stripe - college or university - can and should teach students to be better citizens, as much as practical. Universities could do it the best, with 4 undergraduate years to work with rather than just 2 or 3 like colleges do. Since I've been to a college that did this well, I don't understand why a university can't. When it comes to the long list of skills, then industry itself should step up and be there to teach. Anybody reading the other thread in this forum about student placements can see what a company can do to find the best and mold them into great engineers. And why it is profitable to do so. Wouldn't you want to train a graduate who has learned how to think? Rather than a graduate who only knows how to calculate?

If a technical school really wants to stay focused on specific trades or collections of skills in each program it offers, then the students that attend can figure this out in advance by simply looking at the syllabus. Those that want more can go somewhere else. But a university that narrows its focus to only the skills for a job is short-changing its students.

You've probably guessed that my ideas get little traction when I discuss them with colleagues. There is something about many engineers that turns many of them off to the humanities and the arts, even "pure" science like biology is an alien language to some. It may be that my views are warped by a poor university experience. Had it been better maybe I would wonder what the fuss is about.

As for the use of the word "elitism". It is elitist to think that one is entitled to a better education than others. It is not elitist to think that everyone would benefit from better education.

STF
 
I suppose those of us with the trade school mentality would claim that we pick up arts and history in our own time, having already learned how to learn at uni.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
Greg,
That's not what I meant, but I seem to have insulted you.

Do you think I make my arguments out of prejudice? I attended not just one college, but three technical colleges, for the record, (I'll spare you all the complicated story of transfers and moving across country etc, and the university experience has faded to just a big bump in the road). They were all excellent educational experiences. They all expanded my horizons, not just in the engineering or technical sense.





STF
 
By the yardsticks in use at the moment I guess I'm a trade-school kid. I don't care. :-)

The counterpoint to SparWeb's view is that the folks studying the socio-political, art and business courses should take a few technical classes to ensure that they have a rounded view of the world. I'll see Satan skiing to work before that happens though.

 
SparWeb,

Your arguments may not be made out of prejudice, but the words you choose have deeply ingrained meanings that vary from place to place. You are consigning those of us without minors in basket-weaving to be living out our days as manual labourers. Skilled perhaps, but not allowed or encouraged to think.

- Steve
 
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