kagadpencil:
I sincerely hope that I succeeded, albeit in a small manner, in describing what is an annoying situation in engineering design and operation: the lack of proper basis identification when stating any gaseous state. I apologize if it took me two posts in making the attempt, but I rest on the capabilities of the rest of the experienced Forum members that came to the front to better explain what I have tried to describe as an existing situation. Please consider that my posts were not meant to highlight your rookie experience level or, worse, to emphasize my background or knowledge. Rather, bear in mind that I, as well as all the experienced Forum members (Katmar, zdas04, 25362, TD2K, rmw, & saxon) have had to go through and work with a cumbersome gaseous measurement and have made our errors, discoveries, and understandings due to our raising the question of what really constitutes "standard" conditions in industry. We all learned by doing just what you have done: raise the question and inquire as to why and how to cope with the various systems. The subject, as I stated, is simple and elementary; however, the employment is awkward and trying at times. However, as engineers we are all trained and tested to be above this challenge; and as you've seen in the various postings, although we don't agree with the system (or among ourselves), we certainly know how to deal with it - whatever the standard or rules. That is the point that I have tried to make clear: we are intelligent and well-trained and can work with anything - as long as we are given the basis.
After working in Industrial gases for many years in the U.S., I worked in Europe and found, to my delight, that working, distributing and invoicing gases in mass units was not only acceptable, but much more practical. Why the U.S. has not adopted the same practice is probably one of bias or simply lack of sincere interest. I certainly favor working with gases in mass units whenever I can. It is more accurate, simpler, direct, and easier to understand and visualize. However, many designs don't allow this unless, again, some temperature and pressure basis is given - such as pipe and compressor design.
Saxon has gone to the absolute heart of the engineering point in all this discussion: "what is it, and what are we talking about?". In short, as an engineer you deserve to know and to be advised exactly what it is exactly that you are supposed to be working on - and that always includes the correct units as well as the correct basis. After many years of having to cover for mine and others' mistakes I am no longer sheepish about asking for the basis directly and frankly. If this comes across as overbearing or demanding, I can't apologize for making sure that my work will be as accurate and reliable as my client deserves. I am sure that the other Forum members all believe in this principle.
Art Montemayor
Spring, TX