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Spin of Architect Post 5
- Thread starter buzzp
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casseopeia
Structural
Your question is almost too insulting to answer. I can assure you that all accredited architectural programs require math to Calc 2 or Differential Equations, Construction Means and Methods, Statics and occasionally Dynamics, Strength of Materials, Graphic Communication, and Basic Electrical, HVAC and Plumbing design.
After a 5-year professional degree, most States require a 2-3 year appreticeship while requiring experience in a number of design areas including master planning, programming, building design, construction administration and health, safety and welfare (codes).
After your apprenticeship, you must pass a 9-part, 37.5-hour long test given over 4 days. As I recall, there are about 3 sections that deal with structures, General, Long-span and Lateral Forces. New York and California have an extra portion to their State exams.
After all of that, you are ready to begin your career as an architect.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
After a 5-year professional degree, most States require a 2-3 year appreticeship while requiring experience in a number of design areas including master planning, programming, building design, construction administration and health, safety and welfare (codes).
After your apprenticeship, you must pass a 9-part, 37.5-hour long test given over 4 days. As I recall, there are about 3 sections that deal with structures, General, Long-span and Lateral Forces. New York and California have an extra portion to their State exams.
After all of that, you are ready to begin your career as an architect.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
Most of the architects I've worked with are very grounded, reasonable, and knowledgeable people. There are those "design architects" who think only in terms of forms, lines, and feelings, but they tend largely to be rare--the ones who do the actual work in getting a building built are very down-to-earth and have to know a lot about a lot.
Don't tell anyone I said something nice about architects--I'd hate for that to get out.
Don't tell anyone I said something nice about architects--I'd hate for that to get out.
At the university that I went to, the school of architecture was more prestigious, and harder to get into.
I only knew one architecture student while at school, and his work load was certainly as heavy as mine. I am not familiar with the actual courses, but he didn't have any trouble understanding what I was fretting over in my courses.
You are correct in one respect, they do not have an education in engineering - they have one in architecture.
The appreciation of artistic form is important. And, I think it is imporant in architecture since an architect's work is out there to be seen by all. Something that is aesthetically pleasing adds a certain value to the "neighborhood". A downtown of all square cube buildings would look no different than the light industry and warehouse section of town - and no one would be proud to point to that and say "I live here."
I only knew one architecture student while at school, and his work load was certainly as heavy as mine. I am not familiar with the actual courses, but he didn't have any trouble understanding what I was fretting over in my courses.
You are correct in one respect, they do not have an education in engineering - they have one in architecture.
The appreciation of artistic form is important. And, I think it is imporant in architecture since an architect's work is out there to be seen by all. Something that is aesthetically pleasing adds a certain value to the "neighborhood". A downtown of all square cube buildings would look no different than the light industry and warehouse section of town - and no one would be proud to point to that and say "I live here."
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Sounds to me like its a civil program with some building planning, plumbing, and electrical throwed in (hence the fifth year?). I am not undermining the architect just trying to understand what their background may be.
Whats the difference between you (structural) and an architect? Is it that you only concern yourself with the integrity of the building? If an architect can do everything a structural engineer can do, then is it fair to say that if you have a decent architect on a project then your not needed? Again, just trying to understand where all you guys fit in on a building project and I hate to be so simplistic. Thanks.
Whats the difference between you (structural) and an architect? Is it that you only concern yourself with the integrity of the building? If an architect can do everything a structural engineer can do, then is it fair to say that if you have a decent architect on a project then your not needed? Again, just trying to understand where all you guys fit in on a building project and I hate to be so simplistic. Thanks.
By and large, architects do not possess the depth of knowledge of structural engineering to render me unnecessary. They know enough to understand why I do what I do, but usually could not do it themselves. The same applies to electrical, mechanical, and civil. They are familiar with the concepts, and could probably do some basic design. That's why architects can sign drawings for a building in some states, usually up to a certain size.
Architects often work WITH civil/structural engineers. They each have their specialties.
Architects/civil/structural often work with other disciplines in construction projects, such as electrical (all those lights), mechanicl (HVAC), pipers (all those flushes), interior designers (red walls anyone), etc.
If the other disciplines were not useful, we would soon not have many of them.
Architects/civil/structural often work with other disciplines in construction projects, such as electrical (all those lights), mechanicl (HVAC), pipers (all those flushes), interior designers (red walls anyone), etc.
If the other disciplines were not useful, we would soon not have many of them.
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2
- #8
Architecture is the study of space and how it relates to the human environment.
They design the space, the engineers design the building to define and separate the space.
It is a rigorous program with a lot of technical content combined with artistic expression. At the university that I attended the program was a 3 year bachelor leading to either a degree in Interior design or environmental studies. This was the individual concentrating on either the exterior or interior aspects of the space.
Then came a 2 year Masters degree. This was a rigorous program with a lot of practical construction aspects to it.
Their workload will make most engineering workloads look like a day off. A lot of it is grunt work, making building models and drawing and sketching in the early years but the time demand is considerable.
Most architects that I know are very dedicated hard working people with a lot of practical knowledge of how the building process works and how buildings are actually constructed.
I have actually found that architects are more knowledgeable about all aspects of engineering as it relates to buildings than are engineers with respect to the other engineering disciplines.
If they are pain in the a$$ prima donnas it is because they have a vision of how the completed project will look and function. They want that vision to be realized and not changed by someone who does not share that vision.
Like most people you get back from them the same treatment that you give them. Talk to them about their vision and how the space relates and you will find them knowledgeable professionals.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
They design the space, the engineers design the building to define and separate the space.
It is a rigorous program with a lot of technical content combined with artistic expression. At the university that I attended the program was a 3 year bachelor leading to either a degree in Interior design or environmental studies. This was the individual concentrating on either the exterior or interior aspects of the space.
Then came a 2 year Masters degree. This was a rigorous program with a lot of practical construction aspects to it.
Their workload will make most engineering workloads look like a day off. A lot of it is grunt work, making building models and drawing and sketching in the early years but the time demand is considerable.
Most architects that I know are very dedicated hard working people with a lot of practical knowledge of how the building process works and how buildings are actually constructed.
I have actually found that architects are more knowledgeable about all aspects of engineering as it relates to buildings than are engineers with respect to the other engineering disciplines.
If they are pain in the a$$ prima donnas it is because they have a vision of how the completed project will look and function. They want that vision to be realized and not changed by someone who does not share that vision.
Like most people you get back from them the same treatment that you give them. Talk to them about their vision and how the space relates and you will find them knowledgeable professionals.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
SomptingGuy
Automotive
I would argue that the difference between design and engineering in the construction industry is massively different to that in other industries. Buildings are not disposable mass-market products (except of course in America, where they are replaced every few years!).
I work in an A/E firm, I'm an E who works with A's.
A few comments in response to RDK:
RDK: Most architects that I know are very dedicated hard working people with a lot of practical knowledge of how the building process works and how buildings are actually constructed.
I have actually found that architects are more knowledgeable about all aspects of engineering as it relates to buildings than are engineers with respect to the other engineering disciplines.
LHA: I agree, with clarification. They, by and large, do have an excellent handle on Structural and MEP. But they know almost nothing about site/civil. Also, they don't care. They will propose something totally illegal - too tall, to many antennae towers, in floodplain, over a major gas and water line (I am currently bailing ours out of this one), unaccessable parking, etc. They then leave the Civil to stammer and sweat in front of the Planning Commission/Supervisors/Zoning Hearing Board/DOT.
RDK: If they are pain in the a$$ prima donnas it is because they have a vision of how the completed project will look and function. They want that vision to be realized and not changed by someone who does not share that vision.
LHA: That is good insight, I never really thought about what makes them "pain in the a$$ prima donnas". And it will make me try to see things their way better. BUT (as opposed to a$$;-o) that doesn't excuse the way they tend to act toward us site/civils, without whom they don't build a toolshed, much less "that vision to be realized".
Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve
A few comments in response to RDK:
RDK: Most architects that I know are very dedicated hard working people with a lot of practical knowledge of how the building process works and how buildings are actually constructed.
I have actually found that architects are more knowledgeable about all aspects of engineering as it relates to buildings than are engineers with respect to the other engineering disciplines.
LHA: I agree, with clarification. They, by and large, do have an excellent handle on Structural and MEP. But they know almost nothing about site/civil. Also, they don't care. They will propose something totally illegal - too tall, to many antennae towers, in floodplain, over a major gas and water line (I am currently bailing ours out of this one), unaccessable parking, etc. They then leave the Civil to stammer and sweat in front of the Planning Commission/Supervisors/Zoning Hearing Board/DOT.
RDK: If they are pain in the a$$ prima donnas it is because they have a vision of how the completed project will look and function. They want that vision to be realized and not changed by someone who does not share that vision.
LHA: That is good insight, I never really thought about what makes them "pain in the a$$ prima donnas". And it will make me try to see things their way better. BUT (as opposed to a$$;-o) that doesn't excuse the way they tend to act toward us site/civils, without whom they don't build a toolshed, much less "that vision to be realized".
Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve
- Thread starter
- #12
Well thanks for the clarification. It sounds like the architects are the ones who could be replaced with other disciplines.
So are architects considered engineers then? Sounds like only 3 years of college is necessary according to RDK. Perhaps the 3 yrs is for interior designer then another two years gets you the education (not experience) you need to be an architect.
Based on the little I know, I would say they are not engineers (three years of college to be an interior designer- can't imagine to much engineering curriculum here but it probably comes in the remaining two years).
I am not down on any architect, don't even know any. At the risk of getting slammed, it sounds as though they are glorified designers (drafters) with knowledge out of school equivalent to a designer with 5-10 years of experience. I am sure this is false but based on what I have heard in here, it sounds true.
So are architects considered engineers then? Sounds like only 3 years of college is necessary according to RDK. Perhaps the 3 yrs is for interior designer then another two years gets you the education (not experience) you need to be an architect.
Based on the little I know, I would say they are not engineers (three years of college to be an interior designer- can't imagine to much engineering curriculum here but it probably comes in the remaining two years).
I am not down on any architect, don't even know any. At the risk of getting slammed, it sounds as though they are glorified designers (drafters) with knowledge out of school equivalent to a designer with 5-10 years of experience. I am sure this is false but based on what I have heard in here, it sounds true.
I always thought that architects were something special. That is until I worked with them. In the public works design world that I was involved with, the architects were generally treated "second class" to the civils. This may have been due to the facts that the civils were in control/charge. I was a little dismayed at what the actual design work that did day to day. Bathroom remodels, roofing, flooring, textures, rather mundane grungy work from an electrical point of view. In this environment, the lead architect, craving to express the artistic expression would include a brown horizontal strip on all off his new building and major re-habs. This eventually caught the eye of someone up. He was told to stop this practice. The term glorified draftsman was closer to the truth. And the sad part is these guys are stuck in this rut because architects are not as versitile as engineers.
buzzp,
An Architect deals with issues that involve how people & buildings interact. Things like building size & configuration, room size & layout, location of doors, elevators, stairs (involving the ability to get in, get out, walk around, evacuate) and a whole lot of other issues that overlap with engineering. Engineers involved in building design deal with the forces of nature (wind, gravity, earthquake, heating & cooling, power & lighting, etc.). The two professions have a great deal of overlap and some states recognize this and view them as equals, legally. Both are Design Professionals and both deserve equal respect. There is also the discipline of Architectural Engineering, which brings together Civil, Structural, Mechanical and Electrical under one umbrella (With respect to building design).
An Architect deals with issues that involve how people & buildings interact. Things like building size & configuration, room size & layout, location of doors, elevators, stairs (involving the ability to get in, get out, walk around, evacuate) and a whole lot of other issues that overlap with engineering. Engineers involved in building design deal with the forces of nature (wind, gravity, earthquake, heating & cooling, power & lighting, etc.). The two professions have a great deal of overlap and some states recognize this and view them as equals, legally. Both are Design Professionals and both deserve equal respect. There is also the discipline of Architectural Engineering, which brings together Civil, Structural, Mechanical and Electrical under one umbrella (With respect to building design).
There are various types of achitects as well. Cal Pol SLO has (or had) a 4-yr BS Architectural Engineering that would allow you to get a PE.
It's also about POWER; who has it, and when. Prior to the detailed design, the architect has the power and vision. Furthermore, the architect's reputation is built on the look and feel of the building. If that's changed because the engineering messed with the design, the architect is out of his next job. The Kodak theater's recent annoyance of overly shiny exterior material is a case where the architect had a vision that would have been fine if the theater were located where there were no neighbors to complain about the glare.
TTFN
It's also about POWER; who has it, and when. Prior to the detailed design, the architect has the power and vision. Furthermore, the architect's reputation is built on the look and feel of the building. If that's changed because the engineering messed with the design, the architect is out of his next job. The Kodak theater's recent annoyance of overly shiny exterior material is a case where the architect had a vision that would have been fine if the theater were located where there were no neighbors to complain about the glare.
TTFN
I was surprised to see the 3 years for an architecture bachelors. At my school, it is 4 years. Or, it could be a typo by RDK (we've all done that).
There are definitely overlap. I know that within certain sizes (don't know the sizes), either an architect's or civil engineer's stamp may be used to stamp the drawing. One example that I know of is my residential residence.
buzz, like I said, an architect is not an engineer, hence, he/she will NOT have an engineering education/background.
If an architect was not useful in the market, then they will slowly be phased out.
EddyC said:
There are definitely overlap. I know that within certain sizes (don't know the sizes), either an architect's or civil engineer's stamp may be used to stamp the drawing. One example that I know of is my residential residence.
buzzp said:
buzz, like I said, an architect is not an engineer, hence, he/she will NOT have an engineering education/background.
If an architect was not useful in the market, then they will slowly be phased out.
- Thread starter
- #17
Thanks for the replies. I understand better about what they do. Still in the grey on any formal training that may be required but thats ok.
There is a lot to be said for who is charge (discipline) and who is the second class citizen. I have worked under an EE and therefore, EE's were treated better than mechanicals. I worked for a mechanical and EEs were treated differently. Human nature I guess.
Seems the architectural engineering better be a long program if they cover all that material. I suppose they don't go into the detail as other, more refined disciplines like EE, ME, CE. However, it seems somewhat dangerous to teach them how to design all aspects of a building without the more detailed knowledge of the system they are designing (mechanical, electrical, structural, etc). Anyway, its friday and I am going home.
There is a lot to be said for who is charge (discipline) and who is the second class citizen. I have worked under an EE and therefore, EE's were treated better than mechanicals. I worked for a mechanical and EEs were treated differently. Human nature I guess.
Seems the architectural engineering better be a long program if they cover all that material. I suppose they don't go into the detail as other, more refined disciplines like EE, ME, CE. However, it seems somewhat dangerous to teach them how to design all aspects of a building without the more detailed knowledge of the system they are designing (mechanical, electrical, structural, etc). Anyway, its friday and I am going home.
Buzzp
Not 3 years but 5 years Batchelor(3) plus Masters degree(2).
Some people work as assistants to architects for a while between the two degrees but usually they go on for the master’s and achieve professional status.
That’s more than engineering takes for academic preparation.
They are true professionals in every sense of the word, at least the 50 or 60 that I have worked with over the years.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
Not 3 years but 5 years Batchelor(3) plus Masters degree(2).
Some people work as assistants to architects for a while between the two degrees but usually they go on for the master’s and achieve professional status.
That’s more than engineering takes for academic preparation.
They are true professionals in every sense of the word, at least the 50 or 60 that I have worked with over the years.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
GregLocock
Automotive
At my uni in the UK in the 70s an architecture degree was 4 or 5 years, engineering was 3. They took a lot of our first year courses, so their maths would have had to be pretty good, for non engineers.
I imagine it can be a terrific field to work in.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
I imagine it can be a terrific field to work in.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
According to several lists out there, Cornell University has the best undergraduate architecture program in the US.
Their program is 5 years just for the bachelor's degree, not a combined bachelor's/master's.
On the other hand, they learn relatively little about structural design and other engineeringy stuff. They learn a lot about "design" from an aesthetic/human side. The idea for the rest of it is (a) that's what engineers are for (b) if you really need to know the "hard" (vs. soft, not vs. easy) stuff, you can learn that in your apprenticeship.
Hg
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Their program is 5 years just for the bachelor's degree, not a combined bachelor's/master's.
On the other hand, they learn relatively little about structural design and other engineeringy stuff. They learn a lot about "design" from an aesthetic/human side. The idea for the rest of it is (a) that's what engineers are for (b) if you really need to know the "hard" (vs. soft, not vs. easy) stuff, you can learn that in your apprenticeship.
Hg
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