sorry another post about poor drafting & the decline of pride in ones work 2

[duk748]

well its 6am est here at the sewage plant - at least that is what we seem to enjoy producing & sending out here - just a small rant over what happened to me yesterday -
i started to complain about the poor quality of drawings our group seems to be sending out anymore (datums that are either wrong or have no meaning,
mixing ansi, datum dims, standard dims, all on the same sheet even on the same view, hard to read sections or just about anything you can think of) -
i was told by the vp of engineering that and i quote " you just think that your drawings are better then everyone else" - since when is it a bad thing to do a good job -
hell yes i want to be better then everyone else - is that not what i was taught long ago - do the best work possible & you will be rewarded -
i guess those teachings went by the wayside like the 8-track tape - maybe i need to start looking for a better place to work - w/ no standards except the ones that this company either makes up
on the fly or dreams up that really dont exist we have nothing to follow so i use mine from another company - all my drawings look the same every time -
it just baffles me as to why a department would take such a stance - oh well back to shoveling the sewage (use your own word in place of sewage) -
already pissed off today before the day has even started!! - thanks for the vent - everyone else i hope yours is better then mine

 

[CheckerHater]

By the end of the day, how bad are parts produced from your bad drawings?

Normally the monkey and his uncle are blaming engineering for everything. If your VP is peacefully sleeping at night, maybe your company still doing good job satisfying customers?

Maybe you should push your agenda less aggressively? Offer help when you see someone struggle, offer solution when there is problem. Create an image of positive-attitude guy who is there to make things better rather than well-known trouble-maker. Things may start turning your way.

Or just get another job if you can. Good luck either way!

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

 

[JNieman]

It's important to always examine whether your idea of "better" is objectively or subjectively derived. Objectively better is easy to prove but does not cover a very large array of instances. One example is that a customer sent me a drawing where the secondary and tertiary datums were intangible lines, and instead of basic dimensions, reference dimensions were pulled from these phantom-lines that didn't even touch anything. The phantom lines were dimensioned with a reference dimension off near edges of the part. That is objectively poor.

I'm very particular about the order of dimensions in a 'hole series' when I label them. I speak of holes with counterbores, chamfers, threads, all in one designation. But there isn't really a single "this is the order you put them in" standard- there are a few ways to do it "right" and then you can also cut a section to clarify the hole with traditional linear dimensions. That's a subjective superiority I accomplish that I can't -prove- is better but I -feel- is better.

Of course I don't discount the possibility that you're absolutely correct and the engineer just doesn't care.

Good luck whichever way you wish to do it.

I agree with CH's positivism angle but if that fails... Maybe the next time the engineer says what he did, you can respond "So long as you know mine's better, too, we're ok," and see what he thinks.

_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5

 

[KENAT]

duk748 I'd buy you a beer if I could.

We hired a bunch of new phd's a couple of years ago who don't have a clue on drafting, I tried setting up a little self paced training for them when they got hired but it was of limited scope and I don't think they necessarily finished it before being put onto 'productive work'. (Some of the longer term folks aren't great drafters too but the current crisis is on these 3 youngsters.)

Now they are churning out drawings for our latest product and they are terrible, causing all kinds of problems at vendors etc. somewhat mitigated by sending the model with the drawing or it would probably be worse. The person catching most of the errors is the new (relatively) inspector who has a moderate clue about how to read a drawing including GD&T so keeps rejecting parts when the drawing specifications are wrong/ambiguous.

I know a lot of it is them being green & keen. A lot is probably the pressure from the project manager (and above) to go faster/get more done... However, some stuff is hard to understand. They go to more effort to do things like leave every print on D size format but then change the default text scale so .5 so it looks like it would on an 11*8.5 or something. Rather than actually change the sheet size to B or C as appropriate.

Oh, and the measure taken to try and prevent this was to have them check each others drawings, blind leading the blind style.

To add to the frustration the company eliminated the checking function several years ago, and is now complaining that the drawings weren't adequately checked and quality of them is requiring hoards of ECO's etc. I spent hours on Monday going through some data our Manufacturing Eng department had put together on the bad drawings. Trouble is they'd flagged a bunch of irrelevant crap like 'left the std thread note on the drawing when there are no threads' or even better dinged them for 'not filling out the checked box on the print' which per our released standard they shouldn't be filling out unless the drawing was checked by someone on the approved list of checkers (i.e. me) and mostly ignored the stuff that actually matters.

Grr.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[CheckerHater]

This is exactly what I mean:

In KENATs situation everybody is noticing that something is wrong, and KENAT is offering help (welcomed or not )

It looks like there might be a hope.

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

 

[duk748]

hello again & thank you for the replies - i have tried to offer help even extending my drafting manual & the ge manual also but was told "we have no standards here" so i stopped -
others have complained that i was being too hard on them & was difficult to deal w/ - i was not - i too was young once upon a time so i know the frustration - but i listened & even though i didnt have a 3d cad package
that i believed everything it told me was right i still listened - as far as what impact the drawings are having it is leading to too many ecn's & warranty work that is costing many thousands of dollars - i have since just kept my mouth shut so as not to rock the boat - wrong attitude but be it better to vent here then cost me my job

 

[TheTick]

Curious about the aversion to mixing ordinate dimensions and standard dimensions. If they don't conflict and the view is readable, what's the big deal?

This seems to be more of a prejudice than a standard.

 

[greenimi]

DUK748,

You have to choose your own battle.

Engineers don’t make mistakes, they make revisions.
By the way, did you guys run out of the revision level on the drawings? So, what’s wrong to rev up a drawing? (we can go up to ZZZ)

 

[ctopher]

I experience this more every year. We have numerous new employees that do drawings "their way" and don't follow any standards.
It's a constant battle to get everyone on the same page.

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks '15
SolidWorks Legion

 

[JNieman]

ctopher:
The second-best thing about a company standards manual is that you have a single-source location of guidelines and rules which everyone can reference at their leisure, and refer back to when in doubt. The best thing about a company standards manual is that one can print it out, bind it, and then throw it at the head of whoever refuses to read it.

_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5

 

[greenimi]

JNieman,

Quote:"standards manual is that one can print it out, bind it, and then throw it at the head of whoever refuses to read it."

So, if someone is claiming they are using Y14.5 or the ISO standards can he/she do the same thing?
wowww.
I guess, nobody will want to use the ISO GPS anymore since has 15-20 separate standards and you run the risk to be hit with so many books/prints ………….

 

[KENAT]

ASME builds up to a pretty good size binder too if you get all the related specs.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[3DDave]

Do what I should have done. Caddy for the VP on his Friday early-off golf games and drink beer at the club house. Obviously running the department is not the VP's primary job, so if you want continued employment don't concentrate on anything the VP finds is not important. Also figure a way to get the other people to take bad news about production to the VP. Practice acting surprised when the parts don't go together and be prepared to blame the suppliers for making what the drawings detailed instead of making the parts you needed.

Practically speaking, the words the VP used are code for "You'll be fired soon." He's going to spend all his time looking for some decent excuse to do so. I would not be surprised if he will work to fire anyone who knows more about engineering than he does and will succeed with those people who are not buds with the President of the company.

Start a hard job search now.

 

[ctopher]

We have a standards manual. There are fewer companies these days when people follow them anymore.

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks '15
SolidWorks Legion

 

[Tunalover]

Look back to the twentieth century when the drawing was an object of pride. But back then so much time was spent on the drafting function. With the invention of CAD it seems that, although the drafter has all the tools at hand to produce a superior drawing in "short order" but does not do so in the interest of expediency or due to the lack of ability. I'd like to see some stats on how much time was spent on drafting back then vs. now. You know it's funny how trivial a drawing is to most management folks until the part in question causes a production delay. Then, somehow magically, the drawing becomes an object of intense scrutiny and all those management folks become instant drafting experts.

Tunalover

 

[3DDave]

My management fired all the checkers and then complained the engineers weren't 'consistent' in making drawings.

The same sort of management thought engineers were creating too many COs so they took the CO number log book away from CM and promptly started issuing the duplicate numbers to multiple COs. Because, of course, the production problems being addressed by the COs were caused by access to the CO logbook.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Star for 3DDave.
I read the VP's words pretty much the same way.

Duk, don't lose sleep over this broken job.
Do lose sleep finding a better one.

You can't fight a VP and win.
Just stay out of his gunsights, while doing exactly as he says. A little malicious obedience will make you feel much better.

... but make no mistake, you are doomed there.
Get another job, then get out.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[tbuelna]

duk748-

I think it's great that you have taken a personal interest in the quality of the engineering product produced by your department. But it won't likely help to complain to your company VP. You have to appreciate that he is focused on minimizing costs and maximizing revenues. So until he is convinced that spending more on better engineering documentation will improve the company's bottom line, he will have no incentive to change things.

If the situation is causing you too much grief, then the best thing you can do is quietly start searching for a new job. But don't quit your existing job until you have a firm offer from the new company, and make sure you do the right thing and give your existing employer sufficient notice. I've been in this exact same position myself several times. Sometimes your existing employer will wish you good luck, but sometimes certain people in the company will take your quitting personal, and hold a grudge.