small hose connections

[cdafd]

I know what chapter 23 IFC says when small hose connections are required,
but had this thrown at me and just trying to see which way the wind is blowing.

If you have high piled stock situation and IFC does not require small hose connections, heard some are using nfpa 13 2002 edition to require them per:

12.3.1.3 Hose connections shall not be required for the protection of Class I, II, III, and IV commodities stored 12 ft (3.7 m) or less in height.

any thoughts????

 

[DonPhillips]

If the building is suppressed, and someone is installing high-pile storage, then I look to the current NFPA 13 standard. In Ohio, NFPA 13-2002 was enforced until 1/1/08 and the verbiage in NFPA 13-2007 appears to be the same, except it is now 12.2.2. However, in NFPA 13-2007 12.2.1 small hose connections are required if required by the local jurisdiction.

In reviewing 2006 IFC Chapter 23, I could not find a requirment for small hose connections. And I could not find a requirement in the 2007 Ohio Fire Code. Could it be a local requirement in your area? If so, if 13-2007 is the current code, then they could be required, otherwise, 13-2002 does not appear to require them.


Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

I've always thought hoses for occupant use a very bad idea.

It's as if a company is telling an employee "Here, this is a hose for occupant use and as an employee you're expected to fight this fire to save your job."

Unless an employee is trained in fighting fires I think a case could be made for criminally negligent homicide seeing as how the company left tools about, along with instructions found on most any hose rack, to fight a fire but didn't provide training. That hose looks just like the kind a fire department uses and some employees might be tempted to fight the fire with the hose longer then they would with an extinguisher. The property loss due to fire will pale in comparison should a young mother with two kids, making $1.50 above minimum wage, lose her life fighting a company fire.

IMHO all hose reels and racks should be replaced with signs reading "In The Event Of Fire Get The Hell Out Now!"

If sprinklers can't suppress a fire isn't it time to get out and if they do suppress the fire shouldn't one get out anyway? Let the sprinklers and fire department handle it.

When NFPA 14 first came out it was the turn of the previous century. It was in a day when only men worked. Being the day before unemployment insurance "real men" were expected to stay behind, save the factory and save their jobs. Some factories even had trained "Fire Brigades" with axes, spanners, hoses and nozzles. We've all seen these archaeological relics around old factories in the rust belt.

Good Lord people, NFPA #14 was first dreamed up in 1912 when Russia still had a Czar, China had an emperor, the Titanic had yet to sail and shortly after Teddy Roosevelt was storming up San Juan Hill. There were still a large number of living civil war veterans for Christ's sake. Come to think of it there were still a few veterans alive that fought for Texas during the time of the Alamo and Davy" Crockett

This was the day before the high challenge fires we see today with high piled Class A plastics, foams and everything else bad. I haven't seen any of the early standards but, unlike NFPA 13, I don't think all that much has changed in 100 years.

IMHO if there's any NFPA standard screaming to be totally rewritten it's NFPA #14.

A few states have finally wised up to the risks involved and won't allow occupant hose stations be installed unless employees are trained in their use.

Just to be clear I am not assailing standpipes for fire department use.

Since you asked for it that's my two cents worth.

Whew, that was fun!

 

[DonPhillips]

I have worked directly with two fire departments and indirectly with another four or so while enforcing building codes since 2002. Each one prefers not to have small hose connections and supports the removal of hose reels from buildings that owners decide to remove - that included at least a factory, a church, and a hotel. In every case, they specifically told the owner the hoses were not for fire department use (contrary to poplar beleif) and would not use them during a fire.

I am not saying these six fire departments is representive across the country - perhaps in central ohio - but does support Sprinklerdesigner2's points.

Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com

 

[FFP1]

My experience confirms most of what has been posted above. Most full time fire departments and many volunteer fire departments will not use the small hoses or even the 2.5 in. hoses. The liability insurance carriers have instructed the fire departments that injury claims will be denied if fire fighters get hurt using any equipment which they did not bring to the fire incident; and the equipment they carry on the fire trucks must be tested and maintained.

Some fire departments (the ones who perform pre-incident planning) will sometmes indicate they will use the small hose stations, but not the hoses. They usually will check to make sure the small hoses they carry on the truck will attach to the small hose stations; the threads can be different at older facilities and adapters should be placed on the small hose stations in this case.

Very few facilities have "Fire Brigades" anymore due to the strict OSHA standards and liability associated with employees fighting fires. With the exception of properly trained and equipped fire brigades, employees should only attempt to fight small incipient fires in my opinion.....leave the real fire fighting to the professional fire fighters.