I am a structural engineer involved in building inspections, structural evaluations, forensic investigations, etc. Occationally, someone will ask me to do design work and/or seal design drawings. These drawings are usually for home additions or structural repairs and are not very complex. I do not have E & O Insurance for this type of work. I do not foresee generating a significant amount of money doing this type of work and therefore I'm having trouble justifying spending three grand for this insurance. Is this insurance a legal requirement (PA) and would I be foolish to seal plans without it?
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Sealing Plans: Legal Issues and Risks
- Thread starter JLC3
- Start date
You do have E&O insurance, right. As far as I understand inspections and evaluations are higher liability than design work because they are all considered giving "opinions" which are open to interpretation in court. Did you ask not to be insured for design work to save money?
FalsePrecision
Structural
If you are a seasoned engineer, and take the time to do jobs well, it may be a fairly-low risk proposition to consider foregoing the E & O.
I have discussed this issue with my lawyer and he told me something interesting. Although he advised me to obtain E & O insurance for good sleep, he also said that anything I own which is under both mine and my wifes name is untouchable. In my case this is everything I own. The risk of course is that if we would divorce or (God forbid) she would pass away then everything would pass to me and become fair game. Yet another reason to treat your wife like the precious jewel she is guys.
By the way, this is for PA, I do not know what how other state laws address this.
By the way, this is for PA, I do not know what how other state laws address this.
I disagree with "False Precision".
It does not matter how seasoned you are. If there is a problem in a project the lawyers make sure that everyone involved, from the cleaning lady to the A/E, will get tangled in the lawsuit and at the end everyone would loose.
Good Luck
PS: "Three Grand" for structural E&O coverage is a wishfull thinking.
It does not matter how seasoned you are. If there is a problem in a project the lawyers make sure that everyone involved, from the cleaning lady to the A/E, will get tangled in the lawsuit and at the end everyone would loose.
Good Luck
PS: "Three Grand" for structural E&O coverage is a wishfull thinking.
If you don't see any significant income coming in from this type of work and you aren't pursuing it - why do it at all? Stay with your bread and butter. I used to pass on several geotechnical assignments to other firms when I saw that the effort/time and potential hassles outweighed our benefits as we were not set up for certain types of jobs.
![[cheers]](/data/assets/smilies/cheers.gif "[cheers] [cheers]")
Moonlighting, in my opinion, sheds lame light to our profession for the following reasons:
1. Most engineers who moonlight do it much cheaper than firms who have overhead and expenses.
2. It established a bad trend with clients.
3. It gives the notion that engineering firms make large profit margins when their fees and the moonlighting fees are compared.
4. It subjects not only the engineer but the employers to liability. There have been cases where employer was held liable because the engineer used company’s calc sheets and or software.
5. It does not give clients the professional attention they deserve especially if the engineer is at his regular job and the clients need real answers regarding work performed.
6. If it has to be done, I recommend that you talk directly with your employer and be upfront about it. If they say no, you should respect their wishes. Many companies are bound by their E&O insurance policies.
7. The profit ratio to the degree of risk is tremendous. I notice in Florida, where I live, many engineers are being brought in front of the Board for discipline because they were involved in signing and sealing deficient plans which were not prepared by them or under their supervision.
8. Most engineering jobs required few hours over 40. Assuming that is the case, the engineer must spend lots of time doing the side job. This may happen at the expense of the real job.
This is some of my input and I do not mean for it to be insulting to any one. I did side jobs way back and quickly found out that it is not worth doing. As a matter of fact, I am being asked to appear as a witness regarding a report that was done by me in 1991. Plaintiff attorney found a copy of my report and he subpoenaed me to appear as a witness. They have been stringing me along since October 2003! This has cost me. I am not at fault at all. I just happened to do a report; they are using my report as an exhibit to prove their point. I bet my cost would be over 20 times the money I made.
Regards,
Regads,
Lutfi
1. Most engineers who moonlight do it much cheaper than firms who have overhead and expenses.
2. It established a bad trend with clients.
3. It gives the notion that engineering firms make large profit margins when their fees and the moonlighting fees are compared.
4. It subjects not only the engineer but the employers to liability. There have been cases where employer was held liable because the engineer used company’s calc sheets and or software.
5. It does not give clients the professional attention they deserve especially if the engineer is at his regular job and the clients need real answers regarding work performed.
6. If it has to be done, I recommend that you talk directly with your employer and be upfront about it. If they say no, you should respect their wishes. Many companies are bound by their E&O insurance policies.
7. The profit ratio to the degree of risk is tremendous. I notice in Florida, where I live, many engineers are being brought in front of the Board for discipline because they were involved in signing and sealing deficient plans which were not prepared by them or under their supervision.
8. Most engineering jobs required few hours over 40. Assuming that is the case, the engineer must spend lots of time doing the side job. This may happen at the expense of the real job.
This is some of my input and I do not mean for it to be insulting to any one. I did side jobs way back and quickly found out that it is not worth doing. As a matter of fact, I am being asked to appear as a witness regarding a report that was done by me in 1991. Plaintiff attorney found a copy of my report and he subpoenaed me to appear as a witness. They have been stringing me along since October 2003! This has cost me. I am not at fault at all. I just happened to do a report; they are using my report as an exhibit to prove their point. I bet my cost would be over 20 times the money I made.
Regards,
Regads,
Lutfi
FalsePrecision
Structural
There was never any statement that anyone was doing moonlighting in this thread. The thread is about asking people's opinions about E & O insurance. We can give examples of the rpos and cons. There is no reason to denigrate anyone because of this.
FP, I asked if this was moonlighting because of the way the original question was phrased. It seems to me that if a practicing engineer had proper liabilty insurance for "building inspections, structural evaluations, forensic investigations", he'd also be covered for "design work and/or seal design drawings". Unless, the former was covered by his occupation, and the latter were not.
JCL3, I didn't catch it the first time, but your original post mentions "seal design drawings". Be sure and read your state rules VERY closely on that issue. Some states (such as Utah, I believe) specifically allow engineers to review plans, take responsibility for them, and seal them. But quite a few other states (including Texas) specifically prohibit this practice- you can't seal anything that was not prepared by yourself or under your direct supervision. And of course, all states prohibit "plan stamping", where no significant review is made of the material.
JCL3, I didn't catch it the first time, but your original post mentions "seal design drawings". Be sure and read your state rules VERY closely on that issue. Some states (such as Utah, I believe) specifically allow engineers to review plans, take responsibility for them, and seal them. But quite a few other states (including Texas) specifically prohibit this practice- you can't seal anything that was not prepared by yourself or under your direct supervision. And of course, all states prohibit "plan stamping", where no significant review is made of the material.
- Thread starter
- #13
Thank you for your comments, I will weigh them carfully in making my decision. Let me clarify my current situation. I am self-employed and most of my work is as a sub-contractor to a home/builing inspection company and a forensic vendor. They do carry the appropriate insurance that I assume will cover me in the event of a litigation.
I guess my dilema boils down to this:
In PA you are not allowed to seal drawings that are not directly prepared by yourself or under your direct supervision. If I work with architects and builders (as an independent contractor) and guide and direct the person drawing the plans, does that meet the requirements of being under my "direct supervision." These design drawings will be modified and revised to my liking prior to sealing. This is not a situation were people I don't know are sending me plans for a PE seal. I am familiar with these projects and have made site visits.
I guess my dilema boils down to this:
In PA you are not allowed to seal drawings that are not directly prepared by yourself or under your direct supervision. If I work with architects and builders (as an independent contractor) and guide and direct the person drawing the plans, does that meet the requirements of being under my "direct supervision." These design drawings will be modified and revised to my liking prior to sealing. This is not a situation were people I don't know are sending me plans for a PE seal. I am familiar with these projects and have made site visits.
bridgebuster
Active member
JLC3:
It sounds like what you want to do is legitimate but when in doubt: Call the Board. You don't have to give your name.
I'm licensed in PA. A few years back, one of our offices asked my supervisor if he had a PA PE or if there was one on his staff. He told them that I would be happy to seal the plans. It didn't happen; I refused to do it. I told him there was no way that I could satisfy the requirements of responsible charge by simply reviewing the plans.
It sounds like what you want to do is legitimate but when in doubt: Call the Board. You don't have to give your name.
I'm licensed in PA. A few years back, one of our offices asked my supervisor if he had a PA PE or if there was one on his staff. He told them that I would be happy to seal the plans. It didn't happen; I refused to do it. I told him there was no way that I could satisfy the requirements of responsible charge by simply reviewing the plans.
What about residential drawings where an engineer's seal is needed only for the design of the basement beam or some other isolated component. How are these sitations being handled? I assume the drawings would not be sealed but sealed calculations would be provided.
If you are working as a subcontractor to a home building/inspection company, I think is very dangerous to assume that their insurance will protect you. Unless you have a written guarantee, I would be more inclined to think that it wouldn't protect. You are hired as a subcontractor so that the employer can maintain a distance between your business and his.
I bet you that the home builder will run very fast away from the engineer should any problems arise!
In Florida, many engineers go in front of the Board of Engineers because of code violations or problems with residential plans. I do not like to work with residential contractors nor like to do residential. They never want to compensate engineers to perform the proper job. That is why they resort, in many instances, to engineers who would do them as a side job. At least this is my experience in my area.
Regards,
Lutfi
In Florida, many engineers go in front of the Board of Engineers because of code violations or problems with residential plans. I do not like to work with residential contractors nor like to do residential. They never want to compensate engineers to perform the proper job. That is why they resort, in many instances, to engineers who would do them as a side job. At least this is my experience in my area.
Regards,
Lutfi
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