Schematic Capture/pcb layout 2

[markus506]

Hi folks. Wonder if you guys could chime in on some design suites. Looking for a suite where I can do schematic capture/simulation and PCB layout/design. I see that NI Multisim suite would do this for me. Any other feasible options? Also, I should note that I would love to be able to do thermal simulation as well, however, I don't know if this is a standard type of circuit simulation.

Any help would be appreciated.

Mark

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Plenty of threads here discuss this topic...

Thermal is not always part of a standard PCB package, but many support export of the board into a proper simulator... some packages (like Altium) support "hot-spotting", but its accuracy or level of detail is debatable.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[itsmoked]

This is such a painful subject. I have spent the last two weeks trying to nail this down.

You should re-think the simulation. I am fully convinced that, is red herring. It's like looking for a really nice car with high performance, gorgeous styling, and it has to have a mirrored ball hanging from the ceiling...

You are going to reduce your options dramatically by requiring a simulator and probably down to 1 option by requiring thermal.

I'm trying to understand why one would even want a simulator associated with the already complex process of making good boards?

What is your price limit? How much are you willing to pay each year?

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[markus506]

itsmoked,

Do you feel it is a better option to purchase a good capture/pcb layout solution, and buy a simulator separately? Or do you feel that simulation is not important?

As for pricing, I'm not sure what the company budget is yet for this year. I don't think 5k would be out of the question, if I can get something that will speed up pcb design/layout.

Thanks

Mark

 

[itsmoked]

Hi markus. I used to think sim was useless but I have used it more frequently of late.

It's my experience that once you have a schematic you are off to layout. I can't imagine a good engineer needing to simulate a schematic. What I see is the need to confirm small sub circuits - will this comparator circuit work as I suspect? What might happen at boundaries with it?

Not - lets simulated this whole board.. So I don't see a great reason to include simulation into a complex process.

Also, as soon as you drag in a single complex IC you are stuck as there are typically no simulations available for them anyway.

The Linear Tech simulator works great for these sub circuit explorations. So you don't actually need an integrated simulator in a layout package. Now if you are laying out ICs as compared to circuit boards then yes, you probably would need integrated simulation. You'd probably also need about 30 times that $5K and you'd need the $5k per month for support. LOL



Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[markus506]

Hi Keith,

This is good information, and you're probably correct. I use the LTSpice 4 simulator off and on and it's pretty good. Of course, you have to go searching for spice models for other manufacturer's products, but it's not too big of a hassle.

If I could ask, what do you use for Pcb layouts? Any recommendations?

Thanks,

Mark

 

[itsmoked]

I was afraid you'd ask.

For about a decade I've used a package made by a fellow engineer that rides on top of Autocad so all my Autocad skilz could be put to use. It was very good but needs an old version of AutoCad that won't run on modern computers. I've finally had to look elsewhere.

I've just run through all the low end packages. They're all compromised in some way or another. The higher end products cost way too much from my point of view. As soon as you need to contact people to even get a quote you're already in trouble cost wise.

I have finally settled on Eagle. About $1.4k. It can do about anything but getting it to, is not straight forward.

The best way to actually figure out which package is to get a hold of all of them you're interested in and actually lay out a small board with them. Most allow full, thru gerbers, design of small boards. That really is the only way to know.

My biggest problem with these products are the hardware keys they almost all use. They can cause horrendous problems with failures and always at a bad time.

I'd probably look at Mentor Graphics and Orcad if I had lots of money latitude.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Mark, what type of boards do you design, and at what degree of difficulty?

I've used Altium almost exclusively since Protel 99 hit the market (dabbled a bit in OrCAD), currently running Winter '09 build. they have added some really nice features the last year or two, such as flipping the 3D board stack in real-time, automatic equal-length trace routing, etc. On the sim side, they do have a basic thermal "check", as I mentioned before, and there's also basic EM checks, like propagation delays at speed, etc. That said, I still consider it a capture/layout package first and a sim a faaar second.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[markus506]

Keith,

I currently am using an older version of Eagle. It's pretty good, but since we're doing some budgeting and have some money available, I wanted to see what I could get in a more comprehensive package.


Dan,

I wouldn't say our boards are overly complex. 4 layers max. Largest size would be 6" x 12". No real high frequency stuff either, other than some I2C and CAN.
What do you think of the simulation built into Altium? I like the ability to do the schematic capture once, and be able to simulate it right on the board, vs. having to do several captures, i.e. doing the schem. in another simulator, then having to redo it within the layout package.

Also, I love the ability to have 3d layouts. Since we often use other manufacturer's enclosures, it would be quite beneficial to have a 3d version of the board to ensure all measurement tolerances are met.

Thanks,

Mark

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Altium's 3D integration with outside CAD packages (Solidworks, AutoDesk, etc.) is pretty strong, but if you remove that requirement I think Altium would be too beefy (and costly) for what you want to do. I would look at sim and capture/layout as two separate packages, and Eagle is probably plenty strong for your capture/layout needs. Altium is also getting quite strong with integrated sim/programming of FPGAs, but it doesn't sound like you need that functionality, either.


Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[itsmoked]

Dan what's the ball park price on that Protel? Does it have a dongle?

markus506; All these packages have serious learning curves. Ones that actually cost you a lot of time. If you say you've been using an older Eagle you might look at a newer copy. I started looking at 5.5 and more serious looking at 5.6 and they just came out with 5.7 which I'm now using. They apparently brought a lot of previous requests into reality. Also EAGLE was JUST bought by Farnell which means it could get better yet or.. not. Anyway due to the learning curves these things incur Myself I'd try to stick with what works before I jumped to another ship.

Be interested to see what you end up doing.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[zappedagain]

Altium had a deal going where you could lease it for $100 a month for a year, or buy an outright license for $2400. You can see if that is still going on.

I've been using PADS for the last four years; P-CAD (now Altium) before that. I recommend it; a single license for schematic and layout is about $3500 last time I checked.

John D

 

[itsmoked]

Thanks for that number John.

Dongle?

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[zappedagain]

No, the license is locked to your mac address. A floating network license is a bit more pricey (about $5000 if I remember right).

I've heard that getting a USB Ethernet adapter and then locking your license to the MAC address on the adapter is a good way to keep your license flexible so it isn't locked to a single computer; I believe Mentor even approves of this technique.

John D

 

[MacGyverS2000]

John,

It can't be (just) the MAC address, else I couldn't install it on a machine without a NIC. The "stand-alone installation is my choice, no need for a network license server (which in and of itself has caused a number of problems in the past).





Keith,

That pricing schedule has only been around for the last couple of years, so I don't know how it's working out for them, particularly considering before this the package started at around $5k and went up with optional features. Altium is just as quirky as the rest, and for many years they've followed Microsoft's lead... spend your time/money on new versions with new "wow" features that people need to upgrade to instead of fixing the bugs and releasing a minor update (free).

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[zappedagain]

"a machine without a NIC" - wow, you are dating yourself now!!! I'm sure there are other options for those systems out on the edges of the bell curve.