This is just a notice to the folks who haven't heard about the recent pipeline disaster in San Bruno California. The San Francisco airport is in the small town of San Bruno.
Keith Cress
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Keith Cress
kcress -
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San Bruno 30" Natural Gas Transmission Line, -FAIL- 10
- Thread starter itsmoked
- Start date
Thank you all for your contributions...
Sometimes, it is only by making an extreme point that the true feelings of professionals can be teased out.
I would like to hope that the San Bruno accident will eventually result in a change of regulation and not be forgotten.
Just recently, PG&E decided to reduce operating pressure in high hazard sections of thier system
Perhaps a program of intensive inspection and replacement of all piping (over say...um 40 years old) in high hazard areas would be reasonable.
We are going to only use more natural gas, at higher pipeline pressures. MBAs will only be under more pressure to trim corners and push the system to it's limits.
RMW, I have visited and worked at old fossil poer stations where boiler tubes have failed. It is only the people who have consented to work at the station who are injured....not children asleep at home....
Again, thank you....all
regards
MJC
Sometimes, it is only by making an extreme point that the true feelings of professionals can be teased out.
I would like to hope that the San Bruno accident will eventually result in a change of regulation and not be forgotten.
Just recently, PG&E decided to reduce operating pressure in high hazard sections of thier system
Perhaps a program of intensive inspection and replacement of all piping (over say...um 40 years old) in high hazard areas would be reasonable.
We are going to only use more natural gas, at higher pipeline pressures. MBAs will only be under more pressure to trim corners and push the system to it's limits.
RMW, I have visited and worked at old fossil poer stations where boiler tubes have failed. It is only the people who have consented to work at the station who are injured....not children asleep at home....
Again, thank you....all
regards
MJC
Update......Update.... April 05 2011 !!!!
Government officials have finally recognized that there is a problem and are "unveiling a plan" !!!!
WHHHHHOOOOOOO !!!!!
"We're going to be very aggressive on this," Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said in unveiling his plan, though he acknowledged that many of the details have yet to be worked out. Among the unanswered questions is what it might cost to upgrade the nation's pipeline network and who would pay for it.
"We're trying to work with the pipeline companies to assess what it is they believe needs to be replaced," he added, noting that his agency will hold a pipeline safety forum April 18 in Washington to hash out such issues. "We'll figure out what it costs."
Some pipeline experts generally applauded the move. But they noted that key elements of the plan -- including raising the maximum daily fine from $1 million to $2.5 million -- already are proposed in pending federal legislation and said they would reserve judgment until more about LaHood's ideas are revealed.
Does this sound like the US FEDERAL GOVENMENT ?????
WE HAVE A PLAN !!! ( But most details have yet to be worked out..)
As you read the article.....note that the only item of substance in the proposed plan by the Transportation Secretary is to RAISE THE AMOUNT OF THE DAILY FINE...!!!
It makes me proud to be an American ......
Anyone ???
Government officials have finally recognized that there is a problem and are "unveiling a plan" !!!!
WHHHHHOOOOOOO !!!!!
"We're going to be very aggressive on this," Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said in unveiling his plan, though he acknowledged that many of the details have yet to be worked out. Among the unanswered questions is what it might cost to upgrade the nation's pipeline network and who would pay for it.
"We're trying to work with the pipeline companies to assess what it is they believe needs to be replaced," he added, noting that his agency will hold a pipeline safety forum April 18 in Washington to hash out such issues. "We'll figure out what it costs."
Some pipeline experts generally applauded the move. But they noted that key elements of the plan -- including raising the maximum daily fine from $1 million to $2.5 million -- already are proposed in pending federal legislation and said they would reserve judgment until more about LaHood's ideas are revealed.
Does this sound like the US FEDERAL GOVENMENT ?????
WE HAVE A PLAN !!! ( But most details have yet to be worked out..)
As you read the article.....note that the only item of substance in the proposed plan by the Transportation Secretary is to RAISE THE AMOUNT OF THE DAILY FINE...!!!
It makes me proud to be an American ......
Anyone ???
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
A million dollars a day, or a billion dollars a day, is not an incentive if you never bother to collect it.
It smells like ol' Ray is going to get maneuvered into making US pay for fixing up the decrepit pipelines.
Toyota is now advertising its product as 'NASA certified'. Unbelievable.
Where does Barack get these people? Or is it the air inside the Beltway?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
It smells like ol' Ray is going to get maneuvered into making US pay for fixing up the decrepit pipelines.
Toyota is now advertising its product as 'NASA certified'. Unbelievable.
Where does Barack get these people? Or is it the air inside the Beltway?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Another update: June 10th 2011
"California Orders Utilities to Test or Replace Old Gas Lines"
"The 55-year-old pipeline that ruptured last September in San Bruno, California, had welding flaws, federal investigators have said. PG&E had also misidentified its construction design and poor record keeping on pipelines could mean a line is operated at a higher pressure than it is built to withstand, investigators said.
Pipelines installed before 1962 were not required by state law to have pressure testing"
Hhhhhmmmm.......
Test or replace old piping ???
Who would have suspected ??? !!!!
"California Orders Utilities to Test or Replace Old Gas Lines"
"The 55-year-old pipeline that ruptured last September in San Bruno, California, had welding flaws, federal investigators have said. PG&E had also misidentified its construction design and poor record keeping on pipelines could mean a line is operated at a higher pressure than it is built to withstand, investigators said.
Pipelines installed before 1962 were not required by state law to have pressure testing"
Hhhhhmmmm.......
Test or replace old piping ???
Who would have suspected ??? !!!!
Another update !!!
Looks like there is a preliminary conclusion that it was sewer work that caused the San Bruno explosion.
The expected cawing and braying of elected officials cuts through the night
Rep. Jackie Speier, D-Hillsborough)
"PG&E failed to have a supervisor present during the sewer project located by the segment of pipe that eventually ruptured," she said. "If PG&E had done its job, the assumption is that it would have witnessed the patchwork construction on its pipeline and that, in turn, would have triggered an immediate inspection, if not repair. Instead, eight people died."
I revise my equation above:
Old piping standards + 54 years + unknown pressure surges + California real estate market + Lawyers and CA politicos = disaster snd death
Wait for the next one......
Looks like there is a preliminary conclusion that it was sewer work that caused the San Bruno explosion.
The expected cawing and braying of elected officials cuts through the night
Rep. Jackie Speier, D-Hillsborough)"PG&E failed to have a supervisor present during the sewer project located by the segment of pipe that eventually ruptured," she said. "If PG&E had done its job, the assumption is that it would have witnessed the patchwork construction on its pipeline and that, in turn, would have triggered an immediate inspection, if not repair. Instead, eight people died."
I revise my equation above:
Old piping standards + 54 years + unknown pressure surges + California real estate market + Lawyers and CA politicos = disaster snd death
Wait for the next one......
Well PG&E should have had an inspector at site for this ground distrubance. But speaking from experience, it probably wouldn't have prevented the explosion. Typically it will be someone in operations watching this type of work with no experience or knowledge in integrity. They would essentially be there to make sure the third party doesn't hit the pipe. Unfortunately, that's about as in depth of supervision these inspectors provide.
For some great pictures see:
Lawyers are dancing........ In a bizzare California twist:
"In its court filing, PG&E also said the blast victims themselves "may have been legally responsible under a doctrine of comparative negligence (or) contributory negligence" - factors that assign a portion of blame to a plaintiff.
PG&E's filing did not specify how residents might have been negligent, or how that negligence contributed to the fireball that consumed their homes."
It's too bad that this legal tactic cannot be explained to those victims who were burned beyond recognition in thier homes by the 1000 ft high fireball
PG&E claims that they had a "state of the art" piping system.
You be the judge....does the system need to change ?
What about other states ?
For example, do the jobs-for-life slugs working for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania need to change thier inspection program ?
Lawyers are dancing........ In a bizzare California twist:
"In its court filing, PG&E also said the blast victims themselves "may have been legally responsible under a doctrine of comparative negligence (or) contributory negligence" - factors that assign a portion of blame to a plaintiff.
PG&E's filing did not specify how residents might have been negligent, or how that negligence contributed to the fireball that consumed their homes."
It's too bad that this legal tactic cannot be explained to those victims who were burned beyond recognition in thier homes by the 1000 ft high fireball
PG&E claims that they had a "state of the art" piping system.
You be the judge....does the system need to change ?
What about other states ?
For example, do the jobs-for-life slugs working for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania need to change thier inspection program ?
I'm guessing that they'll argue that most of the residents ignored the smell from the gas leaking from their pipeline, and therefore contributed to the lack of urgency on PG&E's part to repair the leak. Obviously, if there are few complaints, it can't be a big enough problem, right?
Additionally, the increase in population in the area would have "forced" PG&E to run the pipe at a higher than recommended pressure, to supply sufficient gas for the usage demand. Since the customer demanded the increase in gas supplies, they must have implicitly borne the increased risk to the pipeline.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
Additionally, the increase in population in the area would have "forced" PG&E to run the pipe at a higher than recommended pressure, to supply sufficient gas for the usage demand. Since the customer demanded the increase in gas supplies, they must have implicitly borne the increased risk to the pipeline.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
New Developments !!!
At near lightning speed, the NTSB completes its one-year investigation !!!
Grandfathering by Accountants Kills yet Again !!!
"The NTSB also cited federal and state regulators for allowing the "grandfathering" of pipes that lets companies operate older lines without performing hydrostatic pressure tests that expose defects.
The California Public Utilities Commission permitted grandfathering beginning in 1961 while the U.S. Department of Transportation did the same in 1970.
The NTSB previously found that PG&E had listed the San Bruno line as constructed of seamless pipe when in fact the line was made of six sections of seam-welded pipes.
Fabrication of five of the sections would not have met safety protocols when the line was installed five decades ago, while the sixth section was the visibly defective pipe that burst, the agency said.
The internal line pressure before the explosion did not exceed the maximum allowable pressure for the pipeline and would not have caused an accident if the line had been properly constructed."
At near lightning speed, the NTSB completes its one-year investigation !!!
Grandfathering by Accountants Kills yet Again !!!
"The NTSB also cited federal and state regulators for allowing the "grandfathering" of pipes that lets companies operate older lines without performing hydrostatic pressure tests that expose defects.
The California Public Utilities Commission permitted grandfathering beginning in 1961 while the U.S. Department of Transportation did the same in 1970.
The NTSB previously found that PG&E had listed the San Bruno line as constructed of seamless pipe when in fact the line was made of six sections of seam-welded pipes.
Fabrication of five of the sections would not have met safety protocols when the line was installed five decades ago, while the sixth section was the visibly defective pipe that burst, the agency said.
The internal line pressure before the explosion did not exceed the maximum allowable pressure for the pipeline and would not have caused an accident if the line had been properly constructed."
PG&E president Chris Johns said in a statement his company "fully embrace" the findings.
"Because we firmly share the Board’s commitment to seeing that such a terrible accident never happens again, we are grateful for its meticulous review of evidence, finding of facts and thoughtful recommendations," he said.
Horseshit. PG&E does not seem to intend to ever hydro-test their existing ancient untested lines, relocate pipe to non-residential areas, or run "smart pigs" through their ancient lines and then dig at the 'suspect' and 'bad' areas identified by the 'smart pigs'.
If they never test, then they don't OFFICIALLY "know" that there are problems. And since they don't "know" of any problems, they have no requirement to repair, replace, or reroute any pipelines. Looks like the lawyers and accountants have wone this round. Like usual.
Now we get to wait to see if the next big leak kills fewer, or more people, than the San Bruno one did.
This is probably how the ASME Boiler committes folks felt from its founding in 1911 on thru the 1930's, when ASME was "recommended" but not mandatory. Boilers kept exploding and people kept dying, culminating in a few horrific school explosions in the 1920's and 1930's.
"Because we firmly share the Board’s commitment to seeing that such a terrible accident never happens again, we are grateful for its meticulous review of evidence, finding of facts and thoughtful recommendations," he said.
Horseshit. PG&E does not seem to intend to ever hydro-test their existing ancient untested lines, relocate pipe to non-residential areas, or run "smart pigs" through their ancient lines and then dig at the 'suspect' and 'bad' areas identified by the 'smart pigs'.
If they never test, then they don't OFFICIALLY "know" that there are problems. And since they don't "know" of any problems, they have no requirement to repair, replace, or reroute any pipelines. Looks like the lawyers and accountants have wone this round. Like usual.
Now we get to wait to see if the next big leak kills fewer, or more people, than the San Bruno one did.
This is probably how the ASME Boiler committes folks felt from its founding in 1911 on thru the 1930's, when ASME was "recommended" but not mandatory. Boilers kept exploding and people kept dying, culminating in a few horrific school explosions in the 1920's and 1930's.
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Just remember: government is bad, regulations are bad, big business is good. And go drink some tea.
I should probably red flag this as it's a political statement -- but what do people expect when that's the US political philosophy these days?
Patricia Lougheed
******
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.
I should probably red flag this as it's a political statement -- but what do people expect when that's the US political philosophy these days?
Patricia Lougheed
******
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.
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I avoided this thread while it was active, but a client in CA asked me what code changes would this disaster cause to happen. I decided to read the thread before going much farther. It developed pretty much the way I expected when I decided to avoid it.
One recurring theme above is that companies are money-grubbing slime that don't care about public safety. PG&E is going to spend a couple of billion dollars defending and settling the lawsuits. There was no doubt that that would be the outcome of a major failure, and that a major failure was inevitable. They knew it decades ago. Their half-hearted efforts to avoid something like San Bruno met with regulatory and environmental resistance and it didn't take much resistance to cause them to divert the repair funds to executive compensation.
I saw an internal analysis from another interstate pipeline operator done in 1989. Their conclusion back then was that testing/repairing/replacing the High Consequence piping should be a priority (22 years ago) and they started down that road only to find that shutting down a 30" high pressure line for two weeks to test it WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED BY REGULATORS because the disruption of supply would cause "unreasonable hardship" (direct quote from a California regulator) on consumers. I'm serious. The company also looked at replacing sections that had evolved from unpopulated land to under an elementary school playground--the greenies blocked every alternative route, gotta protect the snail darter and spotted owl. A decade after the report I saw very little had been done because of insurmountable barriers not the bottom line.
Companies make decisions that suck. Always have. Always will. But when companies try to do the right thing they're blocked by regulators who are trying to do the right thing (for themselves and their patron's reelection) and misguided environmentalists who see any industrial activity as evil. It doesn't take much obstructionist nonsense to cause a company to revisit the cost benefit analysis and say that a couple of billion in law suits and legal fees is a cost of doing business since they are not allowed to fix the problems.
David
One recurring theme above is that companies are money-grubbing slime that don't care about public safety. PG&E is going to spend a couple of billion dollars defending and settling the lawsuits. There was no doubt that that would be the outcome of a major failure, and that a major failure was inevitable. They knew it decades ago. Their half-hearted efforts to avoid something like San Bruno met with regulatory and environmental resistance and it didn't take much resistance to cause them to divert the repair funds to executive compensation.
I saw an internal analysis from another interstate pipeline operator done in 1989. Their conclusion back then was that testing/repairing/replacing the High Consequence piping should be a priority (22 years ago) and they started down that road only to find that shutting down a 30" high pressure line for two weeks to test it WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED BY REGULATORS because the disruption of supply would cause "unreasonable hardship" (direct quote from a California regulator) on consumers. I'm serious. The company also looked at replacing sections that had evolved from unpopulated land to under an elementary school playground--the greenies blocked every alternative route, gotta protect the snail darter and spotted owl. A decade after the report I saw very little had been done because of insurmountable barriers not the bottom line.
Companies make decisions that suck. Always have. Always will. But when companies try to do the right thing they're blocked by regulators who are trying to do the right thing (for themselves and their patron's reelection) and misguided environmentalists who see any industrial activity as evil. It doesn't take much obstructionist nonsense to cause a company to revisit the cost benefit analysis and say that a couple of billion in law suits and legal fees is a cost of doing business since they are not allowed to fix the problems.
David
Bravo zdas04.....
But, everyone should note that PG&E has finally decided to get off of thier dead asses an attempt to become responsible:
In my post above, on 12 Sept 2010, I said:
"To what standard and HOW OFTEN ARE THESE MAINS INSECTED ?"
It appears to me that CA utilities/regulators make up thier own inspection and testing standards and change them at whim...
Little comfort for those burned alive....
But, everyone should note that PG&E has finally decided to get off of thier dead asses an attempt to become responsible:
In my post above, on 12 Sept 2010, I said:
"To what standard and HOW OFTEN ARE THESE MAINS INSECTED ?"
It appears to me that CA utilities/regulators make up thier own inspection and testing standards and change them at whim...
Little comfort for those burned alive....
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