Report a Board violation discovered on ENG-TIPs? 3

[ImminentCollapse]

Obviously this is a carry-over from the "Report a Client for Fraud" thread. Moon161's post got me thinking, there is probably plenty enough information now for the more (or less) astute to begin narrowing down this project/client/company/individuals.

It appears to be a pretty egregious case. So, anyone licensed in Casseopia's jurisdiction getting squeamish?

Where is the line for reporting something like this as an unrelated third party in a not-so-anonymous forum? I don't know.

IC

 

[jmw]

Its the way management think. It is their nature.
It is the story of the scorpion and the frog.



JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[lacajun]

FeX32, and it's the reason I've worked with alcoholic electricians. Management will not make them responsible. One would drink a six pack of beer just off company premises during his lunch break in a coworkers truck. His wife and coworkers were huge enablers. He couldn't troubleshoot a switch and accused me of being stupid. Another one backed me into the production line and he wreaked of alcohol from every pore and orifice on his body. Again, it was over a switch holding production out. Both were in violation of company policy and could have caused industrial accidents. Everyone looked the other way.

I have an extreme distrust of most managers' abilities to be fair, honest, and discerning and it's based on experience and observation of others' experiences.

I know there are good managers through experience, too. But, I think managers fit the Bell curve, too, so my hopes for cass's situation are pretty darn low.

I understand the depraved nature of humanity all too good. So Pollyannas always amuse me.

 

[SNORGY]

Well...

Most managers are MBAs...

Not that I am in any way bitter...

I recall my dissertaion of "MBA Algebra" in a previous post. My opinion still stands.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[patprimmer]

I have worked with some very good and some very bad managers.

I have also worked with some very good and some very bad engineers.

I have also worked with some very good and some very bad techies and tradies.

If everyone around you is always bad, maybe you need to consider the common denominator.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

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for site rules

 

[lacajun]

patprimmer,

I have worked with many impeccable people. They outweigh the bad ones and those are the ones I remain in contact with. The raunchy ones I don't. But I remember what they are like and that management, even at the VP level, did nothing to help. When I went to a VP of HR, I got intimidation to a degree not experienced yet.

I have no problem admitting my faults, flaws, and failures. They are abundant. I work diligently to keep tight reigns on myself. However, I mess up periodically and when I do, I try to right my behavior with those I've hurt. I am sorry to have given you the wrong impression.

One thing I've learned through Bible study is that you cannot read that book for long without being hit right between the eyes with something you've been doing wrong and that needs discussing with God. I read my Bible just about daily. I have a huge bruise right between my eyes and it's permanent. I've had numerous pastors over the years hit the same durn area.

As for cass's situation, it is a cesspool because of a few people. The owner sets the tone and it is a bad one. My personal thought is the owners tone is evil. I am sure the balance of the employees are OK but unwilling to get their heads chopped off to do the right thing. Why would anyone expect a stellar outcome from that?

Some states I am registered in would take a dim view of airing dirty laundry in public to the extent that the guilty party is no longer protected. cass needs to review her state's statutes and code of conduct to clearly understand her position with respect to protecting her employer.

 

[dik]

She's made no mention of the companies or individuals involved... I cannot identify anyone, including Cass, so I don't think there is an issue.

I often ask project related questions on eng-tips, without identifying the project... they are either for information or to confirm my own thoughts...

If I have to post and think about someone taking it out of context or applying it in a negative fashion... then this is the wrong group.

At work, I keep my password on the top of my computer... and it's not that I'd forget it, but it's in contempt for the IT department. If I have to worry about security in a group of people I work with, then I'm working at the wrong place...

Dik

 

[jmw]

I guess we have to:
[ul][li]define what a manager is expected to do[/li]
[li]measure how they match up to expectations[/li]
[/li]look at the max and min for comparison.[/li][/ul]
Most managers I know are probably considered good by the directors else they'd be gone, and bad by me.
Partly that's because most managers I have known may well fulfil their roles according to the directors and are pretty un-outstanding.
A fair few are pretty useless, still within director acceptability.

Maybe my problem is that I expect too much.
Maybe also I have worked with two or three really excellent managers over the last 30-40 years and only for a very short time because they didn't last long, being fast tracked out of middle management.

So I compare to what could be but what realistically can never be because middle management is regularly culled of anyone with any particular ability. What's left isn't exactly admirable.
The common factor?
Me?
Could be.
My expectations are not high because I don't expect much, but I can recognise a waste of space when I see it.

Maybe others are content and consider a good manager some one who sits in his office and stays out of the way or who lets the people get on without too much interference.

Of course, there may well be industries where there are managers who manage well and don't want to go up the ladder, where a middle manager in a car plant may be somewhat higher up the food chain than a middle manager in a small instrument company,
Maybe in industries which have a better respect for engineering and are heavily dependent on good engineers, you get better managers because you need better managers?

Who knows.



JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[lacajun]

Legal Beat Q&A: Subpoenaed Documents
Question: I have a question concerning project files. I have always treated my files as property of my client and myself. If someone other than my client ever requests files from me, I have always contacted my client to get permission to share a file with the third party. My files have recently been subpoenaed. I do know there is a lawsuit that is underway between this third party and my former client concerning a project we worked on. Am I correct in thinking that my files are the property of my clients and myself and to share these files requires both of our permission? Are we required to provide file and record information for anyone that sends us a subpoena? (Illinois)

Answer: A subpoena is a legal order generally issued by or through a court or governmental agency that has the authority under law to compel testimony by a witness or the production of evidence. Failure to provide the testimony or produce the evidence (e.g., documents, reports) could result in being held in contempt of court.

While you and your client may consider project files your property, that issue is entirely separate and apart from the issue of your legal obligation to honor the terms of a subpoena when it is issued by a court or governmental agency. You may choose to advise your client that your records have been subpoenaed, but you are not required to obtain their permission before honoring the subpoena.

Responses are based on questions posed to NSPE Legal Counsel Arthur Schwartz. These questions and answers do not, in any way, constitute legal advice. Always consult your own attorney before reaching any conclusions or acting upon any information presented in this forum. Also note that legal precedents change. An answer based on a case from several years ago may have a new perspective today.

 

[casseopeia]

lacajun,
Generally files that you share with your Client, unless the Client is an attorney, are discoverable. It's more of a gray area where your own personal notes are concerned. I've never turned over my own rough notes that I used to make a report.

But getting back to the situation that sparked the debate...

On Friday I will be conducting my final review of the construction and preparing a sign-off letter. Of all the issues that were included in my report and repair scope, the one where the client changed the design is one of the more successful. After I caught them changing my drawing, a very much chagrined Client allowed a compromise between my original solution and their corner-cutting design. I worked out something with the contractor and had the area leak-tested twice. The problematic leak has stopped, but as I predicted, it moved the leak to another location (because of the compromise) but the new location is not critical. It can leak for awhile until the new owners decide what they want to do about it. I have more of a problem now with repairs that proved to costly or complex for them to complete prior to the sale. I'm curious how my boss will handle the final letter when it comes to the problems that were not addressed during the repair, but are in my report.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[dik]

If he has any sense, he will simply stipulate only the work that was completed, or better, include a clear statement to include the work that was not completed. It's his baby... and, best, you know nothing about the contents of his letter.

Dik

 

[jmw]

Skating, Cass, skating.

a very much chagrined Client allowed a compromise between my original solution and their corner-cutting design

The client should not be "allowing" anything.
They altered drawings and got caught and are getting away with it.

Still, I'm here and you are there and its not my field. Technically I can offer nothing but I can't see anything in any of this that reflects well on your boss or the client nor that would make me trust them any further than I could throw them...

I wonder just how much is them "managing" the situation before reverting to type the moment your eye is off the ball.
I wonder how your bosses are going to interface with you now.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[MikeHalloran]

>>>I wonder how your bosses are going to interface with you now.<<<

I'm guessing she will become redundant very soon.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[lacajun]

I can only speak for myself but I am tired of people getting away with deliberate acts of deception and others paying for them. If you cannot conduct yourself honorably and make it in business, get out of business. Chic-fil-A is a success story in spite of being told they would never make it, if they closed on Sundays.

 

[casseopeia]

MikeHalloran may be right. I have been in a near constant tug-of-war with the Client on the issue of the final sign-off letter. I have absolutely stuck to my guns on all of the issues. As I said, the changed drawing was caught, but the situation resolved fairly successfully. There is a much larger issue brewing, however. There is one very significant building element that was revised from repairing all of them, to just the ones that were leaking, and then to just the two that were included in the test protocol. But he still insists on a letter that says they completed everything I recommended. His big excuse is that if it wasn't tested, then I can't say that it leaks. I come back with, 'except for the video I took of the water coming out before you turned the irrigation off.'

The Client has the personality and trustworthiness of a cross between a used car salesman and a carnival barker. I have tried every conceivable way to get across that I will not write a letter that misrepresents what was done. He comes back with multiple excuses and tactics to change my stance. A typical conversation goes something like this,

Me: I will write an accurate account of what was completed.

Client: I want you to say we did everything you recommended.

Me: But you only repaired one of these, out of two that were tested, and there are 37 more on site that show the same symptoms as the ones we tested that leaked that you have not touched.

Client: I want you to feel comfortable with the accuracy of your letter so you can say we did everthing you recommended.

Me: Then I have to say you did one, you promise that you might do one more, but there are 37 others that have not been done.

Client: I don't want that. I want you to say we did everything you recommended.

Me: So you aren't really interested in accuracy.



"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[lacajun]

Mr. Halloran may be right but you don't know until it happens.

Your client is wrong. With some of the problems in my neighborhood, I'd like to hang your client and boss out to dry.

Thanks for the update. I've been wondering how you are and recent developments.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[patprimmer]

Sadly I expect Mike is probably right. Been there done that and I am sure Mike has also.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[MikeHalloran]

BTDT, more than once.
Okay, more than twice.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[jmw]

It doesn't get any better when you tell us new information.
He has already won a small compromise from you to change a drawing.
He is now trying to pressure you into making a false or misleading declaration.

I suppose this is a step forward but he isn't exactly contrite/remorseful ("I'm so sorry, I'll never do it again!").
Instead, where previously he falsified your drawings, now he wants you to do the falsification so he can be in the clear.

Your report of the dialogue doesn't show what your boss had to say in these meetings - I presume he was concerned enough to attend and support you?
Nah, I expect he carefully absented himself so he could plead ignorance and blame it all on you when the s**t hits the fan.

And it will.

PS Did you discover anything about the other violations affecting the HVAC? Is there something there just waiting its opportunity to blow the lid off?
PPS Did you ever get some professional/legal advice?

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[casseopeia]

LOL - all the legal advice I need is right here at Eng-Tips!

No more information on the HVAC stuff. I wrote a vague letter to be sign my my boss that is subject to several things passing a water test tomorrow. My boss said that he doesn't want to argue with the Client anymore. He just wants to get paid. The Client has been withholding fees until he gets the letter he wants.

My boss said he did convince the Client that there is a remaining item that needs further destructive testing before an effective solution can be designed. We'll see. My guess is that the Client will snake out of it.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[jmw]

Being caught forging documents, how is the client in any position to dictate anything?
But what do you bet that he will continue to withhold payments anyway.
Why do I get the feeling the client is going to go belly up rather than pay? (and your boss will both expect you to feel sorry for him and blame you). I bet he has everything in his wife's name and some of the bill's he has paid are inflated bills from a company his wife also owns so when he hits the buffers, he has creamed all the money out of the job.

The powers that be (government so no surprises it is yet another massive miscalculation) decided to streamline bankruptcy process in the UK. The net effect was legalised theft.

Here? Legal advise?
LOL.
Legal speculation derived from various different cultures.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com