Check this out: They apparently offer professional engineering services in the USA utilizing a workforce overseas. Their designs are stamped by stateside PEs. I get the impression that this type of business model is not legal, but lets see what others think.
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Remote Engineering 3
- Thread starter EddyC
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and a loss for US engineers.
Except tat the CEO's message says he couldn't recruit and retain engineers in the DC area and that this is a comkon problem.
Is this really the case? Or is it the case that he couldn't find angineers prepared to work as cheaply?
By the way, while he says he trained his staff in India, I didn't find where he says the plans are stamped by stateside PE's... was it on the site or do you have more detailed knowledge?
Interesting to think of all those Indian Engineers, in India, working on projects in the US.... do thet wonder why they weren't invited to come to the States, re-qualify (as necessary) and enjoy something of the lifestyle they are planning for others?
It seems a bit surreal to me. I have no idea if it is legal or not though I would presume that the plan has been carefully thought out and while some may take exception to it, it may very well be legal.
The art, these days, seems to be finding and exploiting loopholes.
JMW
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
The site has a 'careers' tab that solicits engineers to work in Northern Virginia and in Bangalore.
I don't like it, but I guess it could be legal. It's no different from farming out some part of your work product to a guy down the street, except for the length of the street, and the worldwide glut of fiberoptic bandwidth has made the distance irrelevant.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
I don't like it, but I guess it could be legal. It's no different from farming out some part of your work product to a guy down the street, except for the length of the street, and the worldwide glut of fiberoptic bandwidth has made the distance irrelevant.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
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GregLocock
Automotive
Sure, we do it all the time. We design cars for manufacture by clients in India, China and Thailand. Meanwhile we have German suppliers engineering parts, which will be made in places like Germany, India, China and Thailand, and assembled into cars here.
It's called the modern world. Get used to it. If you can't run an engineering design service over the internet and with modern telecommunications, then /you/ are the problem, not the people who can.
Admittedly that may not be preferable for a small office, where the increased overhead of a geographically distributed team is not justified.
Having said that for one of my own projects I tried to arrange a small (40 hour) drafting job in India and decided that it was not worth it. The costs varied from laughable (3$ per hour) to sensible (15$ per hour) but none of the respondees gave the faintest sign they understood what was required, and rather than giving them 40 hours of engineering tuition I did the job myself in 10 boring hours.
That's why on-site contact is important.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
It's called the modern world. Get used to it. If you can't run an engineering design service over the internet and with modern telecommunications, then /you/ are the problem, not the people who can.
Admittedly that may not be preferable for a small office, where the increased overhead of a geographically distributed team is not justified.
Having said that for one of my own projects I tried to arrange a small (40 hour) drafting job in India and decided that it was not worth it. The costs varied from laughable (3$ per hour) to sensible (15$ per hour) but none of the respondees gave the faintest sign they understood what was required, and rather than giving them 40 hours of engineering tuition I did the job myself in 10 boring hours.
That's why on-site contact is important.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
It would be easier to run afoul of the licensing laws with this kind of work, as opposed to automotive. It looks like the website is intentionally very vague about what they offer to avoid this. In many states, you can't "offer to engineer" without a corporate license in the state involved.
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1
- Thread starter
- #6
Looks OK to me. I do Land Development, which is one of their services. Ours is in the top 300 of ENR's 500 Design firms.
I most often work electronically with many of the 300 +/- employees in my company, and sub-contractors, spread out across the eastern USA. I have never met many folks I work with on projects...clients and co-workers alike. Not that it matters in the least. At the end, the PE who was most in "direct control" - whether me or another - seals the final plots.
Very rarely do I get a job small enought that I do all design, CADD, narratives, meetings, etc. myself. Should I stop doing any job I can't do in my office with my 8 co-workers? Man, I'd be out of business.
Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve
I most often work electronically with many of the 300 +/- employees in my company, and sub-contractors, spread out across the eastern USA. I have never met many folks I work with on projects...clients and co-workers alike. Not that it matters in the least. At the end, the PE who was most in "direct control" - whether me or another - seals the final plots.
Very rarely do I get a job small enought that I do all design, CADD, narratives, meetings, etc. myself. Should I stop doing any job I can't do in my office with my 8 co-workers? Man, I'd be out of business.
Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve
Here's another one - they advertised in the ACEC magazine "Engineering Inc":
While most of the NSPE statement appears to be well thought out and balanced...I'd have to say its a bit wishy washy.
First they adamantly state that all work should be in accordance with the state's laws....most all of which, by the way, state that work must be performed under direct supervision of the engineer of record. Then they go on to say that IF such work is performed, the engineer signing the documents should not be put under duress to sign anything that they aren't comfortable with.
This is ridiculous. If the engineer has the work done under their direct supervision, why would they be put under any duress? Unless they HADN'T had the work done under their direct supervision...
First they adamantly state that all work should be in accordance with the state's laws....most all of which, by the way, state that work must be performed under direct supervision of the engineer of record. Then they go on to say that IF such work is performed, the engineer signing the documents should not be put under duress to sign anything that they aren't comfortable with.
This is ridiculous. If the engineer has the work done under their direct supervision, why would they be put under any duress? Unless they HADN'T had the work done under their direct supervision...
GregLocock
Automotive
I guess it comes down to - can you adequately supervise the work without physical contact?
If you can, then off-shoring that work is a possibility.
Since, demonstrably, it is possible for any scale of project, the question is, what is it about your process that makes it inadvisable?
There are a lot of good answers to that question, but there are also a lot of bad ones.
Incidentally, when an American company designs a skyscraper for Shanghai, is that off-shoring, or do you have a nicer word for it?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
If you can, then off-shoring that work is a possibility.
Since, demonstrably, it is possible for any scale of project, the question is, what is it about your process that makes it inadvisable?
There are a lot of good answers to that question, but there are also a lot of bad ones.
Incidentally, when an American company designs a skyscraper for Shanghai, is that off-shoring, or do you have a nicer word for it?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
Ten years ago, I participated in a virtual company that designed and built a factory, then knocked it down and shipped it to Mexico. At least that was the plan; I don't know if it actually happened, after my small part was done. I have never met any of the participants in person.
I have designed yacht exhaust systems for boats I have never seen, built for customers whom I have never met, many of them on the far side of the world.
I'd have to assert that it is possible to supervise/ coordinate the work of others without physical contact, e.g. by phone, fax, email and exchange of CAD files, but it requires extra attention on everyone's part to succeed.
Some of the difficulties that have presented:
- Time differences. Getting a question posed, understood, acknowledged, researched, and answered, can take days when your correspondent is 12 hours out of phase with you.
- Language differences. Not so much among different languages, but among different cultures who nominally speak the same language. Ex: Some folks use a phrase like "would it be possible to do <something> this way..", when they really mean "Please go ahead and do <something> this way..". Actually happened: An Aussie asked would it be possible to do something, etc., I responded yes, and they understood that to mean that I was actually doing it that way. Since I didn't receive a written contract change notice, I went ahead and did it the original way. Bad feelings resulted. Lawyers profited.
- CAD file differences. You will eventually learn ways to repair broken IGES and DXF files, convert from one file format to another, scale both ways between metric and English units, repair drawings that were scaled wrong, deal with missing xrefs and fonts, adjust the world UCS, and more.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
I have designed yacht exhaust systems for boats I have never seen, built for customers whom I have never met, many of them on the far side of the world.
I'd have to assert that it is possible to supervise/ coordinate the work of others without physical contact, e.g. by phone, fax, email and exchange of CAD files, but it requires extra attention on everyone's part to succeed.
Some of the difficulties that have presented:
- Time differences. Getting a question posed, understood, acknowledged, researched, and answered, can take days when your correspondent is 12 hours out of phase with you.
- Language differences. Not so much among different languages, but among different cultures who nominally speak the same language. Ex: Some folks use a phrase like "would it be possible to do <something> this way..", when they really mean "Please go ahead and do <something> this way..". Actually happened: An Aussie asked would it be possible to do something, etc., I responded yes, and they understood that to mean that I was actually doing it that way. Since I didn't receive a written contract change notice, I went ahead and did it the original way. Bad feelings resulted. Lawyers profited.
- CAD file differences. You will eventually learn ways to repair broken IGES and DXF files, convert from one file format to another, scale both ways between metric and English units, repair drawings that were scaled wrong, deal with missing xrefs and fonts, adjust the world UCS, and more.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
This is the effect of globalization. If "A" is not competitive and "B" is competitive, then the opportunity goes to "B". Other issues like logistics, on-site support, etc., are all generally factored in. This is not unique only to drawings get outsourced, but also to umpteen number of things. Most of the automobiles are designed in the Western countries and Japan, but sold in almost all the countries. Likewise, with globalisation and the explosion of the internet facility worldwide, it has become easier to do business and the importance of cost-competitiveness is gaining significance more and more.
HVAC68
HVAC68
A previous company I worked at was the company that was "offshored" the work... we were in Los Angeles and the Prime Contractor was in Hamburg, Germany. Now I'm not a fan of "offshoring" uness it works in MY benefit! Call me selfish and living a life of double standards, but hey... that's life!
Wes C.
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Wes C.
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No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
GregLocock (Automotive):
"Incidentally, when an American company designs a skyscraper for Shanghai, is that off-shoring, or do you have a nicer word for it?"
wes616 (Aerospace):
"Now I'm not a fan of "offshoring" uness it works in MY benefit!"
Both of you hit on the REAL problem folks in the developed world have with developing nations' competitiveness; whether Japanese cars or Indian engineered design.
Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve
"Incidentally, when an American company designs a skyscraper for Shanghai, is that off-shoring, or do you have a nicer word for it?"
wes616 (Aerospace):
"Now I'm not a fan of "offshoring" uness it works in MY benefit!"
Both of you hit on the REAL problem folks in the developed world have with developing nations' competitiveness; whether Japanese cars or Indian engineered design.
Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve
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Well, memories are absurdly short. The era of paternalistic companies, if there ever was one, was only about 30 yrs. Like the days of the cowboy, which was only about 15 yrs, the myth has grown to gigantic proportions.
People in the US forget that less than 70 yrs ago, most people were slaving away 6 days a week in sweat shops trying to beat the Europeans into the business dirt, and succeeded, largely due to two World Wars that crippled Europe for nearly 40 yrs.
Only 40 yrs ago, we conceded our transistor radio industry and then most of the auto industry and most of the semiconductor memory industry to the Japanese.
Only 20 yrs ago, Reagan's State Department nixed the purchase of Fairchild Semiconductor by Fujitsu, who was so enamored with Fairchild, their corporate logo was laid out identically to Fairchild's, except it was blue instead of red.
Globalization has been going for over 2000 yrs; there's no new news here. Surely, the weaver's guilds of Middle Ages Europe must have complained bitterly about the trade in Far Eastern silks and other fabrics?
The US and its industrial revolution totally altered the balance of industrial power for over 100 yrs. It's simply our turn...
TTFN
People in the US forget that less than 70 yrs ago, most people were slaving away 6 days a week in sweat shops trying to beat the Europeans into the business dirt, and succeeded, largely due to two World Wars that crippled Europe for nearly 40 yrs.
Only 40 yrs ago, we conceded our transistor radio industry and then most of the auto industry and most of the semiconductor memory industry to the Japanese.
Only 20 yrs ago, Reagan's State Department nixed the purchase of Fairchild Semiconductor by Fujitsu, who was so enamored with Fairchild, their corporate logo was laid out identically to Fairchild's, except it was blue instead of red.
Globalization has been going for over 2000 yrs; there's no new news here. Surely, the weaver's guilds of Middle Ages Europe must have complained bitterly about the trade in Far Eastern silks and other fabrics?
The US and its industrial revolution totally altered the balance of industrial power for over 100 yrs. It's simply our turn...
TTFN
I don't disagree with you IRstuff, but I have to say, there IS a slight difference here...sort of.
The US is somewhat of a unique country in that it allows local states a level of independence in making laws that govern human behavior. Over the years, the US has gone heavy into Federal power (via the world wars) but the states retain a lot of power still.
One of these powers is the right to regulate and license engineers and they do so in some states that are extremely parochial and even protectionist. I'm licensed in 20 states so I don't have a beef with this other than to say that this off-shoring practice isn't ALL about competition, but has a straight-up legal aspect as well.
Many states say you cannot legally DO engineering in their state unless you are licensed. And you cannot DO engineering by having others DO it for you in some remote location and then sign off on it.
This is really no different than any other law in any other country that limits professional practices in any way from outsiders. Its also somewhat like a soft-tariff in that it limits competitiveness through legal means to guard the local turf.
From my perspective, I don't usually go for most laws that limit open competition. Competition adds to the quality and value of the workforce and industry. But I also see problems with some engineer in a different country not understanding local code requirements, loads, construction practices, etc. that would cause the client problems unless the EOR who eventually signs off on it pays close attention, supervises the work, and ensures the public safety and welfare as any good engineer should.
just my 2 (ok 22) cents.
The US is somewhat of a unique country in that it allows local states a level of independence in making laws that govern human behavior. Over the years, the US has gone heavy into Federal power (via the world wars) but the states retain a lot of power still.
One of these powers is the right to regulate and license engineers and they do so in some states that are extremely parochial and even protectionist. I'm licensed in 20 states so I don't have a beef with this other than to say that this off-shoring practice isn't ALL about competition, but has a straight-up legal aspect as well.
Many states say you cannot legally DO engineering in their state unless you are licensed. And you cannot DO engineering by having others DO it for you in some remote location and then sign off on it.
This is really no different than any other law in any other country that limits professional practices in any way from outsiders. Its also somewhat like a soft-tariff in that it limits competitiveness through legal means to guard the local turf.
From my perspective, I don't usually go for most laws that limit open competition. Competition adds to the quality and value of the workforce and industry. But I also see problems with some engineer in a different country not understanding local code requirements, loads, construction practices, etc. that would cause the client problems unless the EOR who eventually signs off on it pays close attention, supervises the work, and ensures the public safety and welfare as any good engineer should.
just my 2 (ok 22) cents.
Here's another angle on the problem. This artical considers the aspect of national security.
My concern is that sooner or later as engineering pays less and less there won't be any engineers. I believe were going to need engineers to drive vigerous economies.
When all we have left is hair dressers and telephone sanatizers we better make usre we have a few peoplw who can make hand baskets.
My concern is that sooner or later as engineering pays less and less there won't be any engineers. I believe were going to need engineers to drive vigerous economies.
When all we have left is hair dressers and telephone sanatizers we better make usre we have a few peoplw who can make hand baskets.
Everything eventually equalizes. As we get paid less, we have less to spend on fancy haircuts and manicures and we'll only pay for the $5 haircuts, so all those hairdressers are going to laid off, etc. Likewise, we'll spend less money eating out and drinking absurdly expensive coffee, which will dampen the fast food industry and Starbucks. We'll eat at home more and walk or ride the bicycle to work, because we'll be unable to afford the gas or the gas guzzler. We be more fit as a result and live longer. We'll spend more time reading with our family because we can't afford those 50" plasma TVs and the DVDs and cable TV that we pay through the nose for.
IT'S A GOOD THING!!!
TTFN
IT'S A GOOD THING!!!
TTFN
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