I have been working at job 1 for a month now however I interviewed at a lot of places before starting job 1, and so I just received a call from a different firm. Job 2 is offering a 16% greater salary. My plan is the following: approach current employer and say " hey boss I recently received a large offer from a company I interviewed with a month ago before starting here, although I'm not greedy i could really use the extra money company 2 is offering, would you be able to match their offer?" Is this a good or bad idea? Do you recommend Another route?
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Received a larger job offer, now what? 39
- Thread starter CivilTom
- Start date
"Huh? Since when is a resume supposed to be a precise accounting of the minutes you spent with each employer? "
It may be different for me, because of defense-related stuff, but my previous employer was VERY interested in the 1 month I took off between my first and second jobs.
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faq731-376
It may be different for me, because of defense-related stuff, but my previous employer was VERY interested in the 1 month I took off between my first and second jobs.
TTFN
faq731-376
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
It's not a defense thing, it's an HR-weenie thing.
So many resumes are, uh, "punched up" by recruiters and other miscreants that HR personnel regard them as complete falsehoods, and will expend considerable effort to find omissions and misstatements.
One time I submitted a functional resume, in an effort to direct attention away from temporal gaps as recommended by 'resume experts'. I got to watch as an HR weenie who had no concept of what I do for a living, spent three hours interviewing me, basically as a hostile witness, and generating on my behalf a detailed chronological resume that was then submitted to the decision maker. I have seen more impressive resumes from ex-cons. I didn't get that job.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
So many resumes are, uh, "punched up" by recruiters and other miscreants that HR personnel regard them as complete falsehoods, and will expend considerable effort to find omissions and misstatements.
One time I submitted a functional resume, in an effort to direct attention away from temporal gaps as recommended by 'resume experts'. I got to watch as an HR weenie who had no concept of what I do for a living, spent three hours interviewing me, basically as a hostile witness, and generating on my behalf a detailed chronological resume that was then submitted to the decision maker. I have seen more impressive resumes from ex-cons. I didn't get that job.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Here are the biggest questions (to me):
1) Are you a good fit at your current employer? Is it a position where you will grow as an engineer? Are you enjoying it? Where do you see yourself in 5 years if you stay with that employer? Do you think the second job would be more rewarding/challenging?
2) Are you in a probationary period? IMNSHO, if you are - you do not have any obligation to stay with the current employer. A probationary period says they're not sure if they really want you, and a probationary period works both ways. The employer is on probation as well.
If you are not sure on #1, stick with the current employer. If you are not on probation, stick with the current employer.
If you are reasonably sure that #2 is a better position/career track, and you are still on probation (likely with no health insurance) - go with #2.
Any answers to future employers about a 1-month job will be explained along those lines. Something like: "I took the job, and during the probationary period I discovered there wasn't going to be much room for growth for me, so I took a more challenging position with ACME." It needs to be true, of course - figure out why you want to switch, and it shouldn't just be "mo money" when it's a 16% difference.
I'd still leave it off the resume. It's only a month. I also leave my high school library job off my resume, unless the employer asks for a full employment history.
Revisit the issue in 2-5 years.
1) Are you a good fit at your current employer? Is it a position where you will grow as an engineer? Are you enjoying it? Where do you see yourself in 5 years if you stay with that employer? Do you think the second job would be more rewarding/challenging?
2) Are you in a probationary period? IMNSHO, if you are - you do not have any obligation to stay with the current employer. A probationary period says they're not sure if they really want you, and a probationary period works both ways. The employer is on probation as well.
If you are not sure on #1, stick with the current employer. If you are not on probation, stick with the current employer.
If you are reasonably sure that #2 is a better position/career track, and you are still on probation (likely with no health insurance) - go with #2.
Any answers to future employers about a 1-month job will be explained along those lines. Something like: "I took the job, and during the probationary period I discovered there wasn't going to be much room for growth for me, so I took a more challenging position with ACME." It needs to be true, of course - figure out why you want to switch, and it shouldn't just be "mo money" when it's a 16% difference.
I'd still leave it off the resume. It's only a month. I also leave my high school library job off my resume, unless the employer asks for a full employment history.
Revisit the issue in 2-5 years.
Some very interesting points of view on here.
Personally, I think if you're in a probationary period, you should at least stick it out to the end of that period, but then again, what do I know. I know I make less money than I could get elsewhere, but I have the ability to take my kids to the things they need to get to, and I have a happy family life. That's more important to me than the ability to pay more taxes.
Personally, I think if you're in a probationary period, you should at least stick it out to the end of that period, but then again, what do I know. I know I make less money than I could get elsewhere, but I have the ability to take my kids to the things they need to get to, and I have a happy family life. That's more important to me than the ability to pay more taxes.
It is definitely a tough decision. Both schools of thought have valid points.
I have a friend who was recently unemployed. He was luckily enough get another job about 2 month ago. Well after he started working again he received a call from another employer about an possible job. He interviewed and got the position. He switched jobs and started work literally today. Well I was talking to him today and now he received another call from another employer to go on another interview. His response to me saying that it was a small industry the word will get out was "show me the money". Kind of disappointing.
As far a Jed's list, you put people on your list who had a bad interview? Good luck with that. You do realize that sometimes people don't interview well. Like my friend above, he always has great interviews..... but when it comes down to it I wouldn't hire him to manage a lemonade stand.... but that was only after I had worked with him for a few months.
I have a friend who was recently unemployed. He was luckily enough get another job about 2 month ago. Well after he started working again he received a call from another employer about an possible job. He interviewed and got the position. He switched jobs and started work literally today. Well I was talking to him today and now he received another call from another employer to go on another interview. His response to me saying that it was a small industry the word will get out was "show me the money". Kind of disappointing.
As far a Jed's list, you put people on your list who had a bad interview? Good luck with that. You do realize that sometimes people don't interview well. Like my friend above, he always has great interviews..... but when it comes down to it I wouldn't hire him to manage a lemonade stand.... but that was only after I had worked with him for a few months.
PatCouture
Mechanical
The money should not be the main deciding factor!
I would not mind explaining a one month stint at a job if the reason was because I was really hoping for an offer from employer #2 but took offer #1 because I didn't know at the time if they would hire me at place #2. Also if it can be explained by geographical distance or career opportunity that better fits my profile, etc. It's good as long as those are good and honest decision from my part.
I've always worked in small business so If I'm the employer I'd rather have somebody jump shit after one month, than waiting six to quit! Yes it's though to have to start all over again the search for help but if the new hire is leaving it's probably because he would not have been a good fit anyway or I'm not offering enough for the position.
What I want to say is obviously don't ask for more money at job #1 either you want the job and you keep it or it's not good enough for you and you leave. After that if you are leaving only for a better pay then make sure you are ready to live with this decision. At the end of this you still have to live with your conscience.
My 2 cents
Patrick
I would not mind explaining a one month stint at a job if the reason was because I was really hoping for an offer from employer #2 but took offer #1 because I didn't know at the time if they would hire me at place #2. Also if it can be explained by geographical distance or career opportunity that better fits my profile, etc. It's good as long as those are good and honest decision from my part.
I've always worked in small business so If I'm the employer I'd rather have somebody jump shit after one month, than waiting six to quit! Yes it's though to have to start all over again the search for help but if the new hire is leaving it's probably because he would not have been a good fit anyway or I'm not offering enough for the position.
What I want to say is obviously don't ask for more money at job #1 either you want the job and you keep it or it's not good enough for you and you leave. After that if you are leaving only for a better pay then make sure you are ready to live with this decision. At the end of this you still have to live with your conscience.
My 2 cents
Patrick
JedClampett
Structural
We have a probationary period. I think it's 3 or 6 months. To get let go during that period you would have to show general incompetence. An example would be if someone represents themselves as a structural engineer with 10 years experience and they couldn't design a concrete beam. I've never heard of it being enforced.
As far as my list, I'm doing it as a favor for the people I work for.
Them; "Jed, that new employee looks familiar."
Me: "Oh yeah. He worked here about five years ago, but left after a month for a 16% raise."
Them: "Well why did he hire the %$#^&*%@ back? Did you know about this?"
If someone left for personal reasons, or they didn't like the location or they just hated what we do, that's fine. Or if they felt that we didn't meet our committments.
As far as our company's compensation, we didn't have the problem. But it would certainly be reasonable that within the bell shaped curve that represents starting salaries, one company might be on the high end and another be 16% below that.
As far as my list, I'm doing it as a favor for the people I work for.
Them; "Jed, that new employee looks familiar."
Me: "Oh yeah. He worked here about five years ago, but left after a month for a 16% raise."
Them: "Well why did he hire the %$#^&*%@ back? Did you know about this?"
If someone left for personal reasons, or they didn't like the location or they just hated what we do, that's fine. Or if they felt that we didn't meet our committments.
As far as our company's compensation, we didn't have the problem. But it would certainly be reasonable that within the bell shaped curve that represents starting salaries, one company might be on the high end and another be 16% below that.
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1
- #49
Reminds me of the old joke where a guy askes a woman "would you sleep with me for 1 million dollars?" Shes thinks and says "yes". Then he asks "would you sleep with me for 50 bucks?" She replies "No! what kind of woman do you think I am?" He says" we've established what kind of woman you are, now we are just haggling over the price"
So I say to the posters here, who somehow think that the OP wouild be breaking his word. How would your principles hold up if you where in the same situation and the better offer was 100% better?
I say, if 16% salary increase is going to make a positive difference to you and your family, then go for it.
So I say to the posters here, who somehow think that the OP wouild be breaking his word. How would your principles hold up if you where in the same situation and the better offer was 100% better?
I say, if 16% salary increase is going to make a positive difference to you and your family, then go for it.
If it was only about money, most of us would be lawyers...
Oddly, some of those posting about the money are probably PEs, so they don't see an ethical problem with dumping an existing customer for another one offering more money?
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faq731-376
Oddly, some of those posting about the money are probably PEs, so they don't see an ethical problem with dumping an existing customer for another one offering more money?
TTFN
faq731-376
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1
- #52
GTStartup said:
The same either case.
The argument still deals with the consequences of it. You could potentially damage your reputation, potentially have to explain/defend the action down the road, or could burn a bridge with future colleagues at your current company. The question is whether you feel the benefit is enough to outweigh these potential consquences.
If the OP's trade off line is below 16%, then go for it. If not, then don't.
Knowing what I know now, 16% is not enough to outweigh these consquences for me knowing the local market I do business in. 100% definately would be.
It still comes down to an argument of benefits vs consequences and that's not something anyone else can figure out.
PE, SE
Eastern United States
"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi
ukengineer58
Civil/Environmental
IrStuff once the obligations are complete to the customer then you can do what you like. Surely an employees obligation is to turn up and do their best and can leave within the required notice. Similarly the employer can terminate in the same way. Unless of course you propose contacts for life, on both parties side.
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- #54
Forensic74
Structural
Burning bridges? unethical? Come on guys, its not like the OP had his tuition paid for and signed a promissory contract to work for the company for X number of years. Or it's not like he was in charge of a massive project for the company and gave them 2 days notice. Bottom line, companies take risks of employee turnover by being at the mid to bottom end of the salary bell curve. If you get placed on one of these so called blacklists for leaving for a significant raise, then I say they're merely lists to keep track of the engineers who place some value on their salary....I would not want to work for such a firm anyway. I'd rather work for a firm that addresses employee attrition by improving the benefit package, rather than scouting for people who dont stand up for themselves.
I wouldn't be as concerned about pay starting out as being more concerned about what experience can be gained. You may or may not have a better chance at learning more in a faster period of time at a smaller company. I know I learned a lot at a smaller company where I started, but didn't have as many resources available to me as a larger company would. It turns out even though I also came in making very little, the owner was very quick to raise my salary very consistently. The benefits also turned out to be very good. They just never talked about end of the year bonuses and other nice things for some reason until it happened.
I then went to a larger company making a lot more right off the bat. Stress stress stress and not the same family environment. Believe it or not that larger company is what made me realize I needed to start my own company.
B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
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I then went to a larger company making a lot more right off the bat. Stress stress stress and not the same family environment. Believe it or not that larger company is what made me realize I needed to start my own company.
B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
| |
For what it's worth, when fresh out of university it took me a few months to start getting bites from potential employers. I then got 2 around the same time, small company first and a much larger one just slightly later.
However, because the small company was quicker about interviewing me and getting me an offer I took it. I cancelled my interview with the big company even though based on their typical pay scales etc. I may have made a bit more there.
I suspect it worked out OK for me, within a couple of years at the small company I got some bit raises which probably made up for anything I lost the first year or two.
Sorry, but I'm not sure I can decide which side to come down on this one. I strongly empathize with what ajack has said, but then I have the same question as mechengdude. Being the guy I am I'd probably stick with the company that already gave me a chance,
However, because the small company was quicker about interviewing me and getting me an offer I took it. I cancelled my interview with the big company even though based on their typical pay scales etc. I may have made a bit more there.
I suspect it worked out OK for me, within a couple of years at the small company I got some bit raises which probably made up for anything I lost the first year or two.
Sorry, but I'm not sure I can decide which side to come down on this one. I strongly empathize with what ajack has said, but then I have the same question as mechengdude. Being the guy I am I'd probably stick with the company that already gave me a chance,
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
"Burning bridges? unethical? Come on guys, its not like the OP had his tuition paid for and signed a promissory contract to work for the company for X number of years."
We don't know what they spent or invested. If this had been through a headhunter, they would have given the headhunter a commission. Or, the OP might have gotten moving expenses. As a minimum, the company invested time and money to recruit the OP, which is now wasted, in addition to the lost time to be invested in a new hire that has to be brought up to speed on whatever the OP was doing at the company.
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faq731-376
We don't know what they spent or invested. If this had been through a headhunter, they would have given the headhunter a commission. Or, the OP might have gotten moving expenses. As a minimum, the company invested time and money to recruit the OP, which is now wasted, in addition to the lost time to be invested in a new hire that has to be brought up to speed on whatever the OP was doing at the company.
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faq731-376
If they paid a headhunter comission for finding someone who doesn't fit the corporation and will leave for a slitghtely higher wage (or actually a salary wich fits his position) then they might have to re-think their hiring process and this headhunter.
If something like this became a problem just out of the first month, something is clearly some unresolved matters on the job assingment.
If something like this became a problem just out of the first month, something is clearly some unresolved matters on the job assingment.
I just saying that someone leaving a company incurs costs that would have otherwise not occurred. And when you ding someone's pocketbook, they're remember.
That said, better for the company for the OP to bail now, rather than later, when there's more investment in him, and more perturbation in projects he's touched that have to transitioned to someone else.
With interviewees, my first gate is to figure out the average years/job. Too low a value will definitely result in a lower score. What the OP is contemplating may be a recurrent habit with him.
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faq731-376
That said, better for the company for the OP to bail now, rather than later, when there's more investment in him, and more perturbation in projects he's touched that have to transitioned to someone else.
With interviewees, my first gate is to figure out the average years/job. Too low a value will definitely result in a lower score. What the OP is contemplating may be a recurrent habit with him.
TTFN
faq731-376
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5
- #60
spongebob007
Military
I have posted it on these forums before-COUNTER OFFERS ARE POISON, whether using a job offer as a blackmail tool at your current employer or giving your notice and then getting an unsolicited counter from your boss. In the first instance you are potentially burning two bridges. If your current employer counters you will always be marked as a traitor. When you go back to company #2 and tell them "Thanks but on thanks" they will most likely (correctly) suspect that you are simply using their offer to extort more money out of your current employer and you will go on their black list as well. In the second scenario your quitting has caught your manager off guard and having to replace you will mean more headaches for him having to find a new employee and figure out how to pick up the slack of the work you are leaving behind. A counter offer is nothing more than a way to get rid of you on the companys terms. Even if I may sound a bit paranoid and this doesn't happen to you, remember what I said before-you still have the stigma of being labeled a traitor. People will remember this for years, and while it may seem like nothing bad happened to you, five years down the line you could be passed over for that big promotion because one of the decision makers remembers the time you threatened to quit if you didn't get a raise.
Another bit of advice I will give you is that not being paid enough or not being able to pay your bills are NOT vaild reasons to ask for a raise. If you want more money you need to be able to justify your value to your employer. After only one month at a job, it would take a big set of brass balls to threaten your employer to leave if they don't counter your other offer. I can almost guarantee that in one month on the job you haven't done anything to justify to your new employer giving you a raise of over 17%. At this point their investment in you is minimal so you have absolutely no bargaining power.
If job #2 is what you want, accept the offer, give your current employer two weeks notice, and leave on the best terms possible.
Finally, money isn't everything and a well paying job you hate isn't worth it. I learned this lesson the hard way. At my last job I was about 20K a year under paid based on research I had done. I liked the work and it was a pretty relaxed environment where working over 40 hours a week was rare and on occasions I was able to duck out early on Friday afternoon to go fishing. I make quite a bit more now but I have to earn every penny of it and then some. I really no longer have any concept of what an 8 hour day is. I am routinely working 50+ hours a week, sometimes for months at a clip. I have even put in a few 16 hour days. Working 7 days a week is also not out of the question, especially since I am tethered to my company laptop. I have even had to work from home on vacation days. Speaking of vacation, if I need to take time off I usually have to work 12+ hours a day to wrap things up before I go, or work 12+ hours a day to catch up when I get back. I spent the majority of this past summer traveling for work. Let me tell you, this stuff gets old quick and some days I seriously think I would take a job offer for $20K less than I am making now if the potential employer could guarantee that I would never have to work more than 40 hours a week. So if you feel that company #2 is better work with more opportunities for career advancement or more stability, go for it. The 16% raise should just be gravy.
Another bit of advice I will give you is that not being paid enough or not being able to pay your bills are NOT vaild reasons to ask for a raise. If you want more money you need to be able to justify your value to your employer. After only one month at a job, it would take a big set of brass balls to threaten your employer to leave if they don't counter your other offer. I can almost guarantee that in one month on the job you haven't done anything to justify to your new employer giving you a raise of over 17%. At this point their investment in you is minimal so you have absolutely no bargaining power.
If job #2 is what you want, accept the offer, give your current employer two weeks notice, and leave on the best terms possible.
Finally, money isn't everything and a well paying job you hate isn't worth it. I learned this lesson the hard way. At my last job I was about 20K a year under paid based on research I had done. I liked the work and it was a pretty relaxed environment where working over 40 hours a week was rare and on occasions I was able to duck out early on Friday afternoon to go fishing. I make quite a bit more now but I have to earn every penny of it and then some. I really no longer have any concept of what an 8 hour day is. I am routinely working 50+ hours a week, sometimes for months at a clip. I have even put in a few 16 hour days. Working 7 days a week is also not out of the question, especially since I am tethered to my company laptop. I have even had to work from home on vacation days. Speaking of vacation, if I need to take time off I usually have to work 12+ hours a day to wrap things up before I go, or work 12+ hours a day to catch up when I get back. I spent the majority of this past summer traveling for work. Let me tell you, this stuff gets old quick and some days I seriously think I would take a job offer for $20K less than I am making now if the potential employer could guarantee that I would never have to work more than 40 hours a week. So if you feel that company #2 is better work with more opportunities for career advancement or more stability, go for it. The 16% raise should just be gravy.
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