R134a vs R12 1

[PLeon]

I find that all R134a systems are not providing cold air as fast as older R12 systems. I remember R12 systems that would pump cold air withing seconds after start up. Is this true or am I imagining things?
TIA,
Leon

 

[stout1]

I am no expert on this but you are correct. R12 does cool better but is not good for the environment, R134a does not cool as well but is environmentally friendly. I can notice a little difference but it doesn't bother me much, I just need to run the fan a little more now. Hopefully someone will have more info than I do. Have a good one.

Michael

 

[swall]

Actually, the hunt is on for an R134a replacement because of environmental concerns.

 

[Holyterror]

Venting R134a comes with a hefty fine and/or jail time (just like R12). In a little-known Armstrong Labs experiment, a subject was exposed to R134a for four and a half minutes before his pulse and blood pressure became nonexistant. Miraculously, he was revived (CPR I believe), and given pure oxygen. However, he and one other subject continued to experience dizziness and balance problems for six weeks following the experiment! The other subject also experienced ringing in the ears over the same time period, and chest "fluttering" for the first two weeks. The report was written six weeks post-exposure, so who knows if they ever recovered.

I'd be looking for a replacement too.

 

[pennpoint]

Holyterror
I refuse to bite on that....

Best regards
pennpoint

 

[Holyterror]

Then chew on this:

Armstrong Labs Report (can't link directly to the PDF, click on Toxicity Reports at the bottom of the page)


This report was removed from an AF website in '97, and that particular site disappeared in '99 (going by the internet archive).

 

[SMOKEY44211]

There never was an analytical test done to prove that R12 caused depleation of the ozone layer. There was a fellow who owned an automotive a/c repair facility near Cape Kennedy in Florida that was able to convince NASA to gather and analize samples of atmosphere at different altitudes. (This was done prior to the ban on R12). The results were that while trace amounts of R12 were found at the altitude of the ozone layer the concentration was too low to have any measurable effect. If memory serves me correctly it was a former presidential candidate that sponsored the bill to ban R12.-------Phil

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Not buying that report, either...


Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[GregLocock]

Hmm, that PDF's either a convincing fake or it is interesting. So, if you used R12 in the same circumstances what would happen?

And given that most people who use R134a use a containment system when exhusting it, should we care?

After all, we succesfully deal with far greater volumes of far more deadly gases on a regular basis.




Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[transmissiontowers]

If you inhale any gas in sufficient quantities, it will kill you. A friend's brother (air conditioning repair man)committed suicide by opening a full R134 canister in his van.

_____________________________________
I have been called "A storehouse of worthless information" many times.

 

[GregLocock]

Silly question. Is R134a exactly the same as H134a?



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[ivymike]

PRODUCT NAME: Refrigerant 134a
CHEMICAL NAME: 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane
CHEMICAL FAMILY: Hydrogenated Fluorocarbon
FORMULA: F,CCH2F
SYNONYMS: Fluorocarbon-134a, H134a, HFC 134a, HFA 134a, 134a, R134a

 

[pennpoint]

Thank you

Best regards
pennpoint

 

[quark]

The difference in performance between R12 and R134a is not very significant.

Page no.2 in the link below gives you a comparison of R12 and R134a. Page no. 18 gives you inhalation toxicity.

http://www.dupont.com/suva/na/usa/aa/pdf/h45945.pdf

No living organism (or precisely cell) can't survive in a pure oxygen environment. Check the MSDS at,

http://www.uigi.com/MSDS_gaseous_O2.html#SECT11

 

[berkshire]

This link may relate to some of these issues.

http://refrigerants.dupont.com/Suva/en_US/pdf/macs_200502.pdf

B.E.

 

[patprimmer]

A cynical view might go like this.

DuPont invents and patents Fluor carbon type refrigerant gasses. They have exceptional performance and DuPont makes a lot of money while establishing market dominance and manufacturing strength with extensive plant.

Patents expire, but previous investment in plant, manufacturing experience and market dominance still provides a good profit.

Others enter market and gradually improve and begin to undermine prices and take market share.

DuPont starts work on alternative, develops and patents some.

DuPont announces that it has discovered that Fluor carbon damages ozone layer and we will all be seriously damaged by increased exposure to UV light, but hey, just ban Fluor carbon. No worries about repercussions because we have safer alternatives (which just happen to be patented.

Anecdotal evidence, directly to me from industry insiders suggested that Fluor carbon does in fact damage the ozone layer and allow in extra UV light, but extra UV light converts more oxygen to ozone, and thus self heals, although at a somewhat lower level at equilibrium.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[evelrod]

Hi Pat. Thanks. At least I don't need to make a redundant statement.

Cynical to the last,

Rod

PS: FYI---The 91 Dodge diesel and the 85 BBC motorhome I converted to R 134 five or six years ago are still working just fine. I see little or no difference in performance from when they were R 12.

 

[patprimmer]

Hi Rod

I think we both have a reputation for calling it as we see it, even at our own peril.

Co-incidental, (or luckily) we most often have a similar opinion or view.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[stout1]

I may be a little behind with my info but I heard last week that since the 134 patent is running out that there is going to be a new one coming around soon. Also this system is going to have a much higher operating pressure than the current systems so we won't be able to run the old vehicles on the new stuff. My info is pretty vague and I have nothing to back it up but maybe someone else can, I'd be interested in knowing where things are going to headed in the future.

Michael

 

[swall]

The SAE "Interior Climate Control Systems" committee is actively investigating alternative to R134a, which has been found to be a "greenhouse gas". One of the candidates is high pressure CO2.