"Responsible Charge"

[proletariat]

Background: I'm 27 and a very recent PE with construction experience. I switched over to site civil / land development in the last 6 months. I got my PE here in Pennsylvania a few weeks ago.

It turns out, that one other guy and myself are the only two PE's amongst about 30 Landscape Architects in my company. We design subdivisions, and LA's can seal many of the same things on these projects PE's can in Pennsylvania. However, there are a few things like sewer and cost opinions that must be stamped by a PE. So, they approach me and "Joe" (names changed to protect the innocent). I've already refused to stamp one cost opinion, but caved after I found out that the township reveiwing engineer supplied the quantities and prices (almost foolproof). "Joe" has about 15 years experience and will stamp anything provided he can take a few hours to review the drawings.

I've made it clear that I don't plan on stamping anything I didn't have direct control over or design myself. I know that I'll get pressured from the owners and "Joe". Any advice?

Also, should I be looking for a company with more engineers (v/s LA's) to find the mentoring I need to fill in my lack of design experience?

 

[LHA]

I am also a site civil PE in PA, USA (small world).

Per PA Code Title 49 Ch 37, you may seal anything which "...was prepared by the registrant or under the registrant’s complete direction and control."

If you review work done by someone else, and all edits which you direct are made, isn't that project, by definition "...under the registrant’s complete direction and control."?

If not, what is "...complete direction and control."? Hopefully, you don't think every hydrograph in every sealed SWM Report was run by that PE. You would be very wrong. Imagine every proposed contour being drawn by the sealing PE, PLS or RLA. I know many who can't even use CADD, so I wonder how all those Plans are created?

You must make you own choice per your own values. However, I can tell you that the scenario you've described is the norm, and "Joe"'s behavior is, to me, neither unusual, unsafe or immoral Per my reading of the PA Code, it isn't even unethical.

I am certain you will be hard pressed to find a job where you only have to review, edit and seal your own work.

Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

 

[proletariat]

I keep a copy of that section of the code in my desk to refer to during times of weakness, lol. Just kidding. But I interpret it more conservatively. Complete direction and control means that I would have had input throughout the entire design process, not just making comments at the end. I believe this is the spirit of the law. To do that, It would seem that I would need to be the project manager, overseeing technicians and EI's work, or at least be part of the design team whose drawings I was to seal. Other states define the rules more extensively, eliminating some of the gray area.

The situation I find myself in, is being pressured to seal other design teams' drawings, which took, say, 30 hours to design. I'm not enough of an expert to pick out every little thing that could be wrong in the 3 hours alotted for design review. As far as cost opinions go, it is in our company's interest to lowball these numbers so our clients tie up less money in letters of credit and/or bonding. I know the company prices we use are waaaay to low, but I meet resistance when I have asked the project manager to have the developer fax over the last few bid tabulations they got for their projects.

Basically, the problem is this: The company is highly profitable because it pays LA's to do PE's work, and hires a few token PE's to act as rubber stamps where they are needed. My challenge is to tactfully put up a resistance against being used to seal others' work. Any advice?

 

[Ron]

I am not licensed in PA, but the provisions are similar in other states with regard to defining "Responsible Charge". I agree with "lha"....if you review and changes are made as a result of your review, that constitutes control of the process.

 

[ctmtwilliams]

Your position is overly conservative. Just what are you trying to achieve by not stamping? Do you want more billable time on the projects? As others have said, if you are given the opportunity to review and direct changes/corrections there should be no problem in stamping/signing the documents. You typically would have right of refusal to sign/stamp only if your changes weren’t made.

Sounds to me like you have little (if any) confidence in the work being conducted by the LAs in your office. Have you found that many problems with the work you have reviewed? If I was as unhappy with where I worked as you represent, I would be looking for another job.

 

[proletariat]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the definition of responsible charge. Below are some excerpts I'm basing my opinion around. I looked on the asce website, but they don't seem to directly address the issue. I was also a PE in NC before PA, so that's the reason for the two NC references.

NSPE article:

http://www.nspe.org/etweb/10804planstamping.asp

"The Code says that engineers may assume responsibility for an entire project and sign and seal the engineering documents for that project, “provided that each technical segment is signed and sealed only by the qualified engineers who prepared the segment.” This wording is important because it specifies that each portion of the plans must be sealed by the PE who was in charge of the creation of that section. Review of plans alone is not enough."

NC Board Newsletter:

http://www.ncbels.org/newsletters/Fall2004.pdf

NC Board Rules: 27-56.0701 (c)(3)

http://www.ncbels.org/CHAPTER21.pdf

 

[proletariat]

Oops, that last reference should read 21-56.0701(c)(3).

Also, I'm not trying to do anything sneaky like bill more hours. I just don't want to be on the hook for someone elses work, and in violation of the engineers rules of conduct.

 

[VoyageofDiscovery]

Hi proletariat,

If you're in charge, take charge, if you honestly need more time, demand more time and get on with it. Leadership is key.

VOD

 

[DRC1]

First off I agree with the others that in most states, review of others work is acceptable. How ever, this review is only to ensure that the design complies with codes, such as local drainge provisions and reasonable engineering judgement. You don't need to check all the work. Instead of checking all the math, a conservative estimate may quickly show the system works well.Only the stuff pertaining to determining if the drawing is safe and functions adequately. Being sure detatils are adequately dimensioned etc. does not fall under this review (unless such details would adversly impact the safety of the structure.) However, part of resbonsible charge is taking enough time with the plans to be satisfied that you are confident in the drawings. If it is 3 hours, fine if it is 8 hours so be it. Part of the license is that you do not let finacial concerns force you to do less than what you feel satified with.
Finally, If you truely want to know your states requirements for reviewing other drawings, Call the licensing board. Typacilly states have a board that in addition to approving canidates, answers questions about practice requirements. Why not get the answer from the horse's mouth

 

[cvg]

I disagree that checking prior to stamping a set of plans is only to ensure compliance with codes and reasonable engineering judgement. Attorneys don't care what you checked or reviewed - if your name is on the plans, you will be named in the lawsuit. You had better be sure of what you are signing, especially since land developers are a litigious lot. I would insist on more involvement in the design phase (or look for another job) if your signature is to appear on the plans.

 

[ashhafPE]

cvg, I totally agree with you. You design and you seal. I have been there.

 

[Slugger926]

To be in charge, to me would also mean that those LA's should be reporting to you just as jr. engineers would. Then you can stay involved in their projects, and therefore be able to sign off on their work.

Many small civil firms I know of have either environmental scientests or CAD drafters being paid burger-flipping wages while the few PE's sign off on the work they direct to the designers (CAD drafters/environmental scientists). This makes it difficult for an EI out of school to get decent wages to do engineering work in the Civil world.

 

[HgTX]

And yet there have been threads elsewhere (maybe not this forum; I can't remember) in which PEs not licensed in a particular state have been advised "no biggie, you just need to get a PE licensed in that state to review your work." No reporting hierarchy there.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines: faq731-376

 

[EddyC]

proletariat,

I too am a PA PE. I have reviewed the PA rules & regulations, as you did. I find myself in complete agreement with you. You should be involved in the projects in question from the beginning, not just reviewing them in the end. Some of the other states that I have a PE in do allow you to review work & stamp at the end, but PA doesn't appear to be one of them. I think you should inform your employer about the ethical issues surrounding this (The employer doesn't always know). If they are not sympathetic, start looking for another job. You will find that there are other employers and clients that do ask PEs to "rubber stamp", so be on your guard and always be familiar with the state rules & regulations. Good Luck.