PSM Determination

[zdas04]

A client has asked me to determine if a compressor site would be subject to PSM. Under the "infrequently occupied remote site" rule my answer was "no", but he said that he understood that there was a "hydrocarbon inventory" limit of 50,000 lbm (the site has none of the Appendix A chemicals). I can't find anything about hydrocarbon inventory in 1910.119. Can someone point me to that place in the code where this hydrocarbon inventory issue would be addressed?


David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

 

[Latexman]

I don't recall seeing such a thing in the PSM ruling. I think they may be confused with 1910.119(a)(1)(ii) and 1910.119(a)(1)(ii)(A); maybe 1910.119(a)(1)(ii)(B) too, but I doubt it.

Good luck,
Latexman

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[ash9144]

1910.119.a.1.ii addresses flammables above 10,000 lb
a.2 gives the exceptions and lists normaly unoccupied facilities as exempt.

I would say you would want to read the exact wording of the code and determine if it is a "normally unoccupied facility".

 

[zdas04]

Thank you very much. That is exactly the paragraph I was looking for. The site meets the definition of "normally unoccupied remote facilities". I know that different companies define how much occupation can constitute "unoccupied" and my client's lawyer claims that if there is no one there 49.9% of the time then it satisfies the definition. Where I used to work uses 25% (so 8 hours/day, 5 days/week would be normally unoccupied, while 8 hours/day 6 days a week would be normally occupied, the current lawyer claims that is more restrictive than was intended.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

 

[LittleInch]

God save us from lawyers doing engineering....

You might want to check this interpretation of NURF from the regulator whose voice counts more than some lawyer... "Only periodically" is not 49.9% IMHO.

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25058

My motto: Learn something new every day

Also: There's usually a good reason why everyone does it that way

 

[zdas04]

I don't see any Engineering here. Everything about OSHA (and most other regulations) is a bureaucratic exercise in CYA--a perfect venue for the lawyers. That lead paragraph that they use in every single one of their "opinions" makes me cringe every time "I doesn't matter what you told us, it isn't enough and we reserve the right to issue the exact opposite opinion on the next [identical] question". I read the link very carefully and fundamentally they are saying that any given gas production facility may or may not be subject to PSM.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

 

[LittleInch]

I agree they always want it both ways, but the key point was their (OSHA) ruling about what contributed to the deicsion about being a NURF - their no 3 footnote seems to accept that about 1.5 man hurs / day / 14.5 man hours /week allowing for one off visits of 6-7 hours was agreed to be a NURF. I would say for most people "Normally unmanned" would mean about that level of attendence - 49.9% of the time stretches this interpretation beyond breaking. Where is the cut-off between unmanned and manned - my guess would be somewhere about 10% of the week i.e. 17 - 20 hours. OSHA have given this interpretation to help frame this argument / debate so it is the start point. Ultimately in these cases either they (OSHA) accept it or they prosecute your client for not abiding by the regs and ultimately a judge decides on what is accepted. There will be a wide interpreation on "un-manned" and that is my personal opinion, but you and others will have theirs.

My motto: Learn something new every day

Also: There's usually a good reason why everyone does it that way

 

[Latexman]

That's not an interpretation! It's a license to fine whoever they want.

Good luck,
Latexman

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[zdas04]

Latexman,
I am shocked that you would consider an agent of your government to be arbitrary and capricious and to use vague regulatory language as a revenue source.

LittleInch,
I don't have an opinion on this subject at all. If I could find an objective basis for a decision I would provide that to my client, but "objective" seems to be fluttering in the high winds here. The regulatory language was written by lawyers who couldn't make a living in private practice. Mostly it fails every possible "fair and unambiguous language" test. My client is following the advice of counsel on this one.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

 

[LittleInch]

I would just check that the counsel has seen the interpretation given in footnote 3 of the previous post...

My motto: Learn something new every day

Also: There's usually a good reason why everyone does it that way

 

[zdas04]

Ever ask a lawyer if he's read a footnote. No one does it twice.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

 

[Latexman]

Do you want the lawyer telling you how to run your wells, compressors, pumps, etc? Nope.

Good luck,
Latexman

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529

 

[zdas04]

There is a big difference between a lawyer telling how to run a compressor and him telling me the list of government regulations that apply to that compressor.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"