Scary thought, someone signing off on airworthiness certs just because they've been around awhile. In the US, you at least have to pass some tests and go to some seminars (mostly to teach you how to fill out the forms) before you can sign off on airworthiness certs. They don't even consider you a 'candidate' unless you have some experience (though I doubt there are any standards for what constitutes 'experience').
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Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK 4
- Thread starter djroseman
- Start date
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Hydromech,
what is a tragedy is that people are not allowed access to a higher education, not the fact that the higher education is required to be a professional engineer.
I was surprised by your comment until I read that you do not have a qualification. Until you know all the science and theory behind what you do then you can only know 'how' to do things not 'why' you do things.
It is the 'why's that are the most important in engineering because every rule of practice has situations where it is not correct, and it is these exceptions to the rule that are the most common cause of engineering failures.
To put it in structural engineering terms:
1.Any fool can design a house if it is a standard shape and the details can be copied from the one next door.
2.It is when the house is of an unusual shape or configuration that you need an engineer to make sure it works.
3. Only a knowledgable structural engineer can tell whether a house comes under point 1 or point 2.
what is a tragedy is that people are not allowed access to a higher education, not the fact that the higher education is required to be a professional engineer.
I was surprised by your comment until I read that you do not have a qualification. Until you know all the science and theory behind what you do then you can only know 'how' to do things not 'why' you do things.
It is the 'why's that are the most important in engineering because every rule of practice has situations where it is not correct, and it is these exceptions to the rule that are the most common cause of engineering failures.
To put it in structural engineering terms:
1.Any fool can design a house if it is a standard shape and the details can be copied from the one next door.
2.It is when the house is of an unusual shape or configuration that you need an engineer to make sure it works.
3. Only a knowledgable structural engineer can tell whether a house comes under point 1 or point 2.
Back to the orginal posting. Online petitions just won't work. Any man and his dog can set one up - one of the Sunday Newspapers is reporting that a petition for the UK government to intervene in Zimbabwe has fewer votes than one requesting the prime minister to stand on his head whilst eating custard (possibly the most useful thing he coudl do IMHO )- I can't find that one, but here are a few more that currently exist:
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to wear a red nose.
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make 'Being A Member of U2' an arrestable offence
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Resign his position as Prime Minister, within one month
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Ban people from singing the Patsy Cline song 'Crazy' at karaokes
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to relieve the boredom of womens tennis by forcing competitors to perform topless
DrillerNic
Petroleum
This is an old, old issue- the Engineering Institutes have been trying to get the profession of engineering the same status as say, the Law or Medical profession, by making the title of Engineer a notifiable one, or by controlling who can can themsleves and 'Engineer' for ages. We had the Chartered thing (administered by a government quango, the Engineering Council), we had the European 'Euring' qualification and lately we've got the 'Engineering Technician' qualifiaction from the Engineering Council, to try and capture those with experience but without an accredited degree who don't want to jump through the (small number) of hoops to get Chartered status.
Sadly, it's a battle that has already been lost- maybe it's the British aversion to earning your money by making things, who knows. I'll sign the petition, as I'm also tired of people thinking an engineer is a plumber or a mechanic, but I doubt if it will make much difference.
For what it's worth, I think making it so that a Chartered Engineer is the only person to be able to themselves Engineer wouldn't be so bad. Going back to the medical comparison, there are 'Nurse Practitioners' who can do many of the things that Junior Doctors and GPs can do - prescribe drugs, for example, but they still aren't doctors. A doctor is someone who has been admitted into one of the Medical Colleges- there's one for GPs, one for Surgeons and so on. Admission is similar to admission to one of the Engineering Institutes: get an acredited medical degree, and then undertake an accredited and assessed training scheme, with competency assesed either by exams, interview or by review. The movement through Junior House man, SHO, Registrar, Consultant is simply a grading structure for hospital doctors, like Engineer, Senior Engineer, Lead engineer and so on.
For those Engineers who have an unusual background- coming up the apprentice route, or like me who don't have an Institution (I'm a Petroleum or a Drilling Engineer, depending upon who I'm talking to), there are alternative routes to membership of an Institution that aren't very onerous: do the Engineering Council exams, or build a body of experience and get assessed at an interview.
However, as I said above, it's far, far too late to get Engineering as a notifiable title, or to get the idea in the public mind that an Engineer is a professional, just like a Doctor, a Lawyer, an Accountant or a Surveyor.
Sadly, it's a battle that has already been lost- maybe it's the British aversion to earning your money by making things, who knows. I'll sign the petition, as I'm also tired of people thinking an engineer is a plumber or a mechanic, but I doubt if it will make much difference.
For what it's worth, I think making it so that a Chartered Engineer is the only person to be able to themselves Engineer wouldn't be so bad. Going back to the medical comparison, there are 'Nurse Practitioners' who can do many of the things that Junior Doctors and GPs can do - prescribe drugs, for example, but they still aren't doctors. A doctor is someone who has been admitted into one of the Medical Colleges- there's one for GPs, one for Surgeons and so on. Admission is similar to admission to one of the Engineering Institutes: get an acredited medical degree, and then undertake an accredited and assessed training scheme, with competency assesed either by exams, interview or by review. The movement through Junior House man, SHO, Registrar, Consultant is simply a grading structure for hospital doctors, like Engineer, Senior Engineer, Lead engineer and so on.
For those Engineers who have an unusual background- coming up the apprentice route, or like me who don't have an Institution (I'm a Petroleum or a Drilling Engineer, depending upon who I'm talking to), there are alternative routes to membership of an Institution that aren't very onerous: do the Engineering Council exams, or build a body of experience and get assessed at an interview.
However, as I said above, it's far, far too late to get Engineering as a notifiable title, or to get the idea in the public mind that an Engineer is a professional, just like a Doctor, a Lawyer, an Accountant or a Surveyor.
Lots of people can call themselves doctors, namely PhDs. But only medical doctors can call themselves MDs. Engineering is similar. Only those who have completed the education, experience and testing requirements can call themselves Professional Engineers or Chartered Engineers. I kind of like the fact that the word "Engineer" is literally one who "engines". If people who engine call themselves engineers, it is fine with me. But anyone who call themself a PE, and is not, is committing fraud, and the law already covers this.
SomptingGuy
Automotive
You also see quite a lot of "PC Doctor" adverts these days as well as doctors for all manner of other appliances.
DrillerNic, it's not just consultant that get to be doctors though, junior doctors are still doctors. I likened CEng to consultant doctors.
When in the UK I was a member of the relevant institution just hadn't quite reached CEng yet, and was working as 'an engineer'. I thought I should be allowed to use the title engineer however the petition as signed would stop that.
Anyway if we can't even decide what an engineer is thread730-152809 how can we decide who is one?
I'm more with graybeach chain of thought.
It would be nice to stop dustbin men being sanitary engineers or photocopier operators from being photcopier engineers etc though. Not a lot of 'engineering' going on there.
When in the UK I was a member of the relevant institution just hadn't quite reached CEng yet, and was working as 'an engineer'. I thought I should be allowed to use the title engineer however the petition as signed would stop that.
Anyway if we can't even decide what an engineer is thread730-152809 how can we decide who is one?
I'm more with graybeach chain of thought.
It would be nice to stop dustbin men being sanitary engineers or photocopier operators from being photcopier engineers etc though. Not a lot of 'engineering' going on there.
Good point SomtingGuy. If someone call themself "PC Engineer" that would be just plain wrong though because it would imply that the person knows how to engineer one, not just clean up the hard drive. Maybe calling a garbage collector a Sanitary Engineer is more of a joke anyway. No one will mistakenly ask this person to design a sanitary sewer.
GregLocock
Automotive
I can call myself a professional engineer. I am a professional engineer. I can't call myself a PE in exactly one jurisdiction worldwide. The world is, as they say, a very big place.
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Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
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Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
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