Does anybody have experience with POWERBOSS Motor Controller (SOMAR Co. UK) for induction motors? It is not only a soft starter but adapts the voltage (current) to the real load requirements which results in energy savings especially during part load of the motor. I would learn the opinion of a user?
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POWERBOSS Motor Controller 6
- Thread starter hd167
- Start date
It varies depending on what supplier you chose before the crisis, but upwards towards $0.25/kWH. At my residence I happen to only pay $0.15 but thats because I did not switch from the original supplier, PG&E (they are trying to declare bankruptcy). For a while under the deregulated scenario last year, a relative in San Diego went from $0.11 to $0.35 in one month. Industrial rates are typically higher depending upon what you can negotiate. The best deals right now are for "bulk rates" meaning that you supply your own sub-station etc., and the utility just connects the wires at 12.47kV. Some of those rates can be as low as $0.08 I've heard. Most hover between 12-20 cents/kWH. With deregulation, everything is negotiable. The best rates go to the best negotiators!
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
-
1
- #23
brucecranene
Mechanical
Compensators at the load offer the best overall energy savings, for the customer and the utility. The benefits of compensation is realized from the point of installation on the line back to the power source. By placing the compensator at the load contactor or disconnect, all of the wire and connections between the load and the meter are “covered” by the compensator’s effect. Using a 1/3 hp motor and compensator, the table below show reductions in W, KVA, AMPS and KVAR. Volts and amps from the compensator and the motor remain at rated values. W is not effected in the power factor curve, but is realized at the meter because I2R losses are reduced reflected in the amps reduction. All of the wire and connections between the load and the panel have I2R losses, which in the demo is 4.5 amps. .
When the compensator is initially charged, it starts interacting with the magnetic field formed at the inductive load. The 4.5 amps is initially needed from the power company to charge the compensator, after which the magnetic field and the KVAR compensator “swap” the 4.5 amps back and forth, with almost no need to replenish the 4.5 amps. Without the compensator, the 4.5 amps cannot be used by the magnetic field or to produce work, so it goes to the inductive loads windings in the form of heat. So when the compensator is located at the contactor, the I2R losses between the compensator and the inductive load are minimized, the I2R wire/connector losses from the compensator to the meter are maximized, all of the 4.5 amps are eliminated. The inductive load and the wire/connectors run cooler, will last longer, and reduce the air conditioning load. The compensator additionally acts as a surge suppressor.
The Powerboss:
1. Reduces volts, I call it an electronic voltage chopper
2. Reduces the kw consumed, but may over time cause damage due to undervoltage conditions.
3. Creates harmonics
The compensator on the other hand:
1. Maintains the supplied voltage to the inductive load
2. Maintains the supplied amps to the inductive load
3. Makes the load run cooler (usually 5-20 degrees depending on the condition of the windings)
4. Extends the life of the inductive load
5. Reduces reactive power (kvar)
6. Reduces real power (kva)
7. Reduces amps
8. Reduces kw
9. Allows more amps to be installed in the existing panels
10. Reduces the kw and kva load on the utilities transformer
11. Eliminates transformer replacement due to kw & kva overload
12. No harmonics created
13. By placing the KVAR compensator at the inductive load, any harmonics that are created by electronic devices are not trapped by the presence of the KVAR ompensator, but the bulk reactive compensators located at the main panel do trap created harmonics.
14. KVAR compensator minimizes over & critical correction
15. No calculations
16. No moving parts to ware out
17. No sensitive electronics
18. KVAR is accurate, rugged, & long lasting (compensators have an average 25 year life)
19. KVAR can be sized and installed online, without process interruption
20. Reduce the air conditioning load
21. Provides surge protection
22. Amperage reductions guaranteed and long lasting
23. 5 Year Warranty
24. May be able to reduce the conductor size
25. May be able to reduce design needs from 125% to 110% or lower
Measurement Before After Units
Voltage, A Phase, Ave: 122.2 122.6 volts
Current, A Phase, Ave: 6.0 1.5 amps
True Power, A Phase, Ave: 179.8 170.5 Watts
VA Power, A Phase, Ave: 727.6 184.0 VA
Power Factor, A Phase, Ave: 0.25 0.93
When the compensator is initially charged, it starts interacting with the magnetic field formed at the inductive load. The 4.5 amps is initially needed from the power company to charge the compensator, after which the magnetic field and the KVAR compensator “swap” the 4.5 amps back and forth, with almost no need to replenish the 4.5 amps. Without the compensator, the 4.5 amps cannot be used by the magnetic field or to produce work, so it goes to the inductive loads windings in the form of heat. So when the compensator is located at the contactor, the I2R losses between the compensator and the inductive load are minimized, the I2R wire/connector losses from the compensator to the meter are maximized, all of the 4.5 amps are eliminated. The inductive load and the wire/connectors run cooler, will last longer, and reduce the air conditioning load. The compensator additionally acts as a surge suppressor.
The Powerboss:
1. Reduces volts, I call it an electronic voltage chopper
2. Reduces the kw consumed, but may over time cause damage due to undervoltage conditions.
3. Creates harmonics
The compensator on the other hand:
1. Maintains the supplied voltage to the inductive load
2. Maintains the supplied amps to the inductive load
3. Makes the load run cooler (usually 5-20 degrees depending on the condition of the windings)
4. Extends the life of the inductive load
5. Reduces reactive power (kvar)
6. Reduces real power (kva)
7. Reduces amps
8. Reduces kw
9. Allows more amps to be installed in the existing panels
10. Reduces the kw and kva load on the utilities transformer
11. Eliminates transformer replacement due to kw & kva overload
12. No harmonics created
13. By placing the KVAR compensator at the inductive load, any harmonics that are created by electronic devices are not trapped by the presence of the KVAR ompensator, but the bulk reactive compensators located at the main panel do trap created harmonics.
14. KVAR compensator minimizes over & critical correction
15. No calculations
16. No moving parts to ware out
17. No sensitive electronics
18. KVAR is accurate, rugged, & long lasting (compensators have an average 25 year life)
19. KVAR can be sized and installed online, without process interruption
20. Reduce the air conditioning load
21. Provides surge protection
22. Amperage reductions guaranteed and long lasting
23. 5 Year Warranty
24. May be able to reduce the conductor size
25. May be able to reduce design needs from 125% to 110% or lower
Measurement Before After Units
Voltage, A Phase, Ave: 122.2 122.6 volts
Current, A Phase, Ave: 6.0 1.5 amps
True Power, A Phase, Ave: 179.8 170.5 Watts
VA Power, A Phase, Ave: 727.6 184.0 VA
Power Factor, A Phase, Ave: 0.25 0.93
Not if I can help it!
They and several others are attempting to peddle this concept all over. They have even set up a Multi-Level-Marketing scheme with several vendors who are more interested in setting up new sub-distribution channels than actually selling to end users. My take is that at the user level, the "rubber hits the road" and the claims must be substantiated by results. Since they can't show it, they never get the 2nd order. That leaves the hapless sub-vendor holding the bag with an investment in inventory and training expense which they can only recover by finding another "partner". Some of my best customers have almost been taken in by a sales pitch that makes outlandish claims. Fortunately they have been at least smart enough to ask questions of me and other legitimate manufacturers first. I direct people to Marke's website as it has the most comprehensive (and fair) treatise I have seen. I tend to be a little too negative as some of you have pointed out!
I do agree that there are SOME applications where they do save SOME money. I even sold Nola based controllers (Nordic ES-1 Energy Savers, the very first products released in the US with that technology) back in the mid 70's and continued to offer it throughout the 80's. One great application was Bowling Pin Resetters since they run for long periods of time and engage the load for only a few seconds periodically. Nordic targeted that industry in the early 80's and saturated that market, but that was the last hurrah and the product was abandoned after they were absorbed by Siemens . For the last 10 or so years I have come across maybe 3 applications where a Nola device MIGHT be usefull in saving energy. That is out of probably 100+ applications per month that I am involved in for soft starters and drives. That in my book was not worth mentioning.
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
They and several others are attempting to peddle this concept all over. They have even set up a Multi-Level-Marketing scheme with several vendors who are more interested in setting up new sub-distribution channels than actually selling to end users. My take is that at the user level, the "rubber hits the road" and the claims must be substantiated by results. Since they can't show it, they never get the 2nd order. That leaves the hapless sub-vendor holding the bag with an investment in inventory and training expense which they can only recover by finding another "partner". Some of my best customers have almost been taken in by a sales pitch that makes outlandish claims. Fortunately they have been at least smart enough to ask questions of me and other legitimate manufacturers first. I direct people to Marke's website as it has the most comprehensive (and fair) treatise I have seen. I tend to be a little too negative as some of you have pointed out!
I do agree that there are SOME applications where they do save SOME money. I even sold Nola based controllers (Nordic ES-1 Energy Savers, the very first products released in the US with that technology) back in the mid 70's and continued to offer it throughout the 80's. One great application was Bowling Pin Resetters since they run for long periods of time and engage the load for only a few seconds periodically. Nordic targeted that industry in the early 80's and saturated that market, but that was the last hurrah and the product was abandoned after they were absorbed by Siemens . For the last 10 or so years I have come across maybe 3 applications where a Nola device MIGHT be usefull in saving energy. That is out of probably 100+ applications per month that I am involved in for soft starters and drives. That in my book was not worth mentioning.
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
jayeshnshah
Electrical
167
My experience with EnergySavers (Copied form POWERBOSS by Shandilya in India) shows that there is aboslutely no savings if the motor under question is loaded and is efficient one. Savings are only possible when the losses are more. Inview of the fact, it is adviceable to replace the motor if it is too lod and inefficient. Or if the motor is underloaded, replace by suitable ratings. No need to invest hard earned money in such things.
Jayesh N Shah, Vardhman Electricals, Surat, India.
My experience with EnergySavers (Copied form POWERBOSS by Shandilya in India) shows that there is aboslutely no savings if the motor under question is loaded and is efficient one. Savings are only possible when the losses are more. Inview of the fact, it is adviceable to replace the motor if it is too lod and inefficient. Or if the motor is underloaded, replace by suitable ratings. No need to invest hard earned money in such things.
Jayesh N Shah, Vardhman Electricals, Surat, India.
Hello brucecranene
Can you please provide a link to detail on one of these compensators. I am not familiar with such a technology under that name.
Best regards,
Mark Empson
Can you please provide a link to detail on one of these compensators. I am not familiar with such a technology under that name.
Best regards,
Mark Empson
Gentlemen,
Having had very recent discussions with persons from Somar/Powerboss, it would appear that they are slowly learning the error of their ways and are now leading (on some occassions) with the benefits achieveable from the soft start/soft stop functionality provided by their product, rather than their energy saver/optimiser feature.
The reason that I use the words 'slowly learning' in my opening paragraph is because, the continue to make outlandish claims, this time along the lines of "our soft start/soft stop functionality performs as well as the very best soft starters on the market".
Will they ever learn?
Regards,
GGOSS
Having had very recent discussions with persons from Somar/Powerboss, it would appear that they are slowly learning the error of their ways and are now leading (on some occassions) with the benefits achieveable from the soft start/soft stop functionality provided by their product, rather than their energy saver/optimiser feature.
The reason that I use the words 'slowly learning' in my opening paragraph is because, the continue to make outlandish claims, this time along the lines of "our soft start/soft stop functionality performs as well as the very best soft starters on the market".
Will they ever learn?
Regards,
GGOSS
-
1
- #29
Can any one tell me if Powerboss is a device that really can save energy. We are a pre-end-user, expected to invest about 100k RMB into it and to achive energy saving purpose. However, after a distributor proformed a few demo to us, we have are not sure if the demo are real or not! one time it reach 40% and above saving from the meter and one time shows nothing. We are not sure. Please if anyone ahve such experiment with Powerboss? please let me know. Thanks in advance
chin-chi
chin-chi
Hello elong
Yes, the technology does work, and I have seen savings as high as 75%, but the real problem is that 40% of a small amount is an even smaller amount!!
This type of technology will yeild the highest savings under open shaft conditions. At this point, the primary energy saving is a reduction in the iron loss of the motor which is relatively small compared to the motor rating except on small single phase motors. Large motors are commonly more than 90% efficient at full load, and the iron loss is in the order of half of the losses, making the potential savings les than 5% of the motor rating at no load and diminishing as the load is applied.
I would suggest that you look at the efficiency curves of motors and compare these with load curves of typcal applications and you will find that the real applications are very restricted. Small punch presses, plastic granulators are examples where some savings can be achieved, but forget about pumps and compressors.
There are a number of discussions on this site and also on my own site about this technology. Have a good read, and check results with a true rotating disk meter in real applications!
Best regards,
Mark Empson
Yes, the technology does work, and I have seen savings as high as 75%, but the real problem is that 40% of a small amount is an even smaller amount!!
This type of technology will yeild the highest savings under open shaft conditions. At this point, the primary energy saving is a reduction in the iron loss of the motor which is relatively small compared to the motor rating except on small single phase motors. Large motors are commonly more than 90% efficient at full load, and the iron loss is in the order of half of the losses, making the potential savings les than 5% of the motor rating at no load and diminishing as the load is applied.
I would suggest that you look at the efficiency curves of motors and compare these with load curves of typcal applications and you will find that the real applications are very restricted. Small punch presses, plastic granulators are examples where some savings can be achieved, but forget about pumps and compressors.
There are a number of discussions on this site and also on my own site about this technology. Have a good read, and check results with a true rotating disk meter in real applications!
Best regards,
Mark Empson
cbarn24050
Industrial
Hi, I depends on your application, how much time does your motor spend runing off load?
brucecranene
Mechanical
Be careful. Powerboss is a wave chopper that chops current and voltage to your motor. This could damage the motor if the unit's circuits start to fail. They do nothing for I2R and power factor. Capacitors at the load will maintain the current and voltage, reduce I2R and bring the power factor to unity, increase motor life by reducing reactive current, provide surge protection on startup in rush current. Consistant savings, to 30% or more, are based on proven capacitor reliability, a rugged 25 year average life, no moving or sensitive electronic parts, no need to surge protect.
[blue]...increase motor life by reducing reactive current...[/blue]
How? The current in the motor is exactly the same, unless the capacitors cause the supply voltage to change. The current supplied to the combination of motor and capacitor from the source is reduced; the reactive current consumed by the motor is supplied by the capacitor: the two cancel to a certain degree.
How? The current in the motor is exactly the same, unless the capacitors cause the supply voltage to change. The current supplied to the combination of motor and capacitor from the source is reduced; the reactive current consumed by the motor is supplied by the capacitor: the two cancel to a certain degree.
brucecranene
Mechanical
Ans ScottyUK
True, once the capacitor is charged, the motor and capacitor "bounce" the reactive power necessary to mainatain the electromagnitic field. Normally, only a portion of the reactive power is needed to establish and maintain the electromagnetic field, the remainder goes to waste energy in the form of heating the windings. So, when the continuence of supplying the reactive power is not needed, because the capacitor is installed, this extra power is no longer "given up" to the winding in the form of heat. Reduce the heat, improves the motor life.
True, once the capacitor is charged, the motor and capacitor "bounce" the reactive power necessary to mainatain the electromagnitic field. Normally, only a portion of the reactive power is needed to establish and maintain the electromagnetic field, the remainder goes to waste energy in the form of heating the windings. So, when the continuence of supplying the reactive power is not needed, because the capacitor is installed, this extra power is no longer "given up" to the winding in the form of heat. Reduce the heat, improves the motor life.
Hello brucecranene
"Powerboss is a wave chopper that chops current and voltage to your motor" : True
"This could damage the motor if the unit's circuits start to fail." : No increase in risk over other means of control. Solid state controllers are very common and reliable.
"They do nothing for I2R and power factor" : Definitely incorrect! The principle relys on reducing the voltage applied to the motor terminals when the motor efficiency is low, reducing the iron loss in the motor. This is achieved by the reduction of the flux in the iron, a result of the reduction in magnetising current (reactive current) The original Nola (NASA) patent referred to the unit as a "power factor controller" as the algorithm reduced the voltage until the power factor increased to a preset value.
"Capacitors at the load will maintain the current and voltage, reduce I2R and bring the power factor to unity" : Capacitors at the load will improve the power factor, but if the motor is corrected to unity with static correction, major problems can occur. Static Correction must not exceed 80% of the magnetising current unless separate contactors are employed for the motor and capacitors. The i2r reduction is very small relative to the motor rating unless the cable size if much too small.
"increase motor life by reducing reactive current," : The reactive current in the supply is reduced, the reactive current in the motor is not, however with the NOLA principle, the reactive current in the motor is reduced at very light load. Static power factor correction will not significantly extend motor life.
"Consistant savings, to 30% or more," Energy saving is essentially i2r and is primarily in the distribution system rather than after the consumers meter. Payback is generally the result of reduced KVA or pf penalties rather than a reduction in KWHr on the consumers meter.
"Normally, only a portion of the reactive power is needed to establish and maintain the electromagnetic field, the remainder goes to waste energy in the form of heating the windings." : This is exactly the argument put forward by PowerBoss and others who reduce the voltage to the machine under light load. The capacitors can not reduce the magnetising current in the motor. This can only be done by either reducing the voltage or increasing the frequency.
Best regards
Mark Empson
"Powerboss is a wave chopper that chops current and voltage to your motor" : True
"This could damage the motor if the unit's circuits start to fail." : No increase in risk over other means of control. Solid state controllers are very common and reliable.
"They do nothing for I2R and power factor" : Definitely incorrect! The principle relys on reducing the voltage applied to the motor terminals when the motor efficiency is low, reducing the iron loss in the motor. This is achieved by the reduction of the flux in the iron, a result of the reduction in magnetising current (reactive current) The original Nola (NASA) patent referred to the unit as a "power factor controller" as the algorithm reduced the voltage until the power factor increased to a preset value.
"Capacitors at the load will maintain the current and voltage, reduce I2R and bring the power factor to unity" : Capacitors at the load will improve the power factor, but if the motor is corrected to unity with static correction, major problems can occur. Static Correction must not exceed 80% of the magnetising current unless separate contactors are employed for the motor and capacitors. The i2r reduction is very small relative to the motor rating unless the cable size if much too small.
"increase motor life by reducing reactive current," : The reactive current in the supply is reduced, the reactive current in the motor is not, however with the NOLA principle, the reactive current in the motor is reduced at very light load. Static power factor correction will not significantly extend motor life.
"Consistant savings, to 30% or more," Energy saving is essentially i2r and is primarily in the distribution system rather than after the consumers meter. Payback is generally the result of reduced KVA or pf penalties rather than a reduction in KWHr on the consumers meter.
"Normally, only a portion of the reactive power is needed to establish and maintain the electromagnetic field, the remainder goes to waste energy in the form of heating the windings." : This is exactly the argument put forward by PowerBoss and others who reduce the voltage to the machine under light load. The capacitors can not reduce the magnetising current in the motor. This can only be done by either reducing the voltage or increasing the frequency.
Best regards
Mark Empson
jbartos
Electrical
- Jan 15, 2000
- 6,440
Suggestion: Visit
for several statements that should not be overlooked, e.g.:
1. The ‘Soft Start’ feature incorporated in three-phase Powerboss also smoothes out mechanical stresses in the system.
2. When offered to the customer on a lease/rental facility there is no capital outlay and the quarterly payments are always a fraction of the projected savings.
3. Each Distributor is also supplied with a portable demonstration case containing a Powerboss unit wired into an ammeter and a voltmeter.
4. Etc.
for several statements that should not be overlooked, e.g.:
1. The ‘Soft Start’ feature incorporated in three-phase Powerboss also smoothes out mechanical stresses in the system.
2. When offered to the customer on a lease/rental facility there is no capital outlay and the quarterly payments are always a fraction of the projected savings.
3. Each Distributor is also supplied with a portable demonstration case containing a Powerboss unit wired into an ammeter and a voltmeter.
4. Etc.
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