ok, the 3d sketch line thing worked like a champ. Thank you, woulda taken me a while to figure that one out. The next one that is not in the book... I have a cylinder at an unknown compound angle, somewhere in space mated to a hole in a part imported from proE. The line of draw has to be " vertical", not at the compound angle, so I have to more or less " boss revolve a cylinder" to vertical so I get a tapered pin. I figure I can do a cut to get a flat face after I am done, can you revolve a cyliunder like that? never seen it mentioned in the book. I do have a plane perpendicular to the line of draw and an idea what I want, just have not found the trick yet.