PE Stamping of Bid Sets 1

[Jc67roch]

We were having an internal company discussion about this yesterday. Historically, we have only stamped drawing sets for permitting and for the Owner's files. We have not stamped the bid sets, which do seem to become the Contractor's construction set. I believe the standard or requirement in New York State is that only the drawing sets that go to agencies or officials need to be stamped? We are curious what other companies are doing or what their policies are?

On the one hand, stamping sets shows them to be complete and the "final version", helping to avoid mixing up sets or iterations of design.

On the other, if we stamp the bid sets, do we then need to also stamp all SK- drawings and clarifications issued during construction? This can lead to a lot of extra work.

Secondly, we were talking about the merits and potential for abuse or highjacking of electronic stamps in PDFs. Even scarier is sharing of electronic PE stamps in CAD drawings, which some of our clients require (and to which we add lots of disclaimers about editing or changing). We are curious what other firms are doing in this are also.

 

[EngineeringEric]

For us...

1) We do not seal Bid Drawings. We also paste in large letters "Not for Construction" in hopes that the contractor will not take these drawings out of the estimating rooms. We then seal all CDs that go to owners and officials. Some jurisdictions here require all SKs released to be sealed. One official even wants us to seal all letters/comments that leave during construction(!). We do not do the last one and argue every time

2) For sharing of digital files we purge and clear all seals from our CAD files if we share them. the PDFs are dated/flattened and are no more copiable [able to be copied - should be a word] than a paper seal. Someone would have to scan/crop the seal, erase the date, and re-date it for stealing. I am no more worried about PDF seal theft than paper seal theft. This may be ignorance but it is my current opinion for what it is worth.

2.1) my office is also having conversations about electronic sealing our PDFs and adding disclaimers on all documents... but i do not see the merits at this time. To me, if someone will steal or alter my documents they will regardless of what precautions i take as long as i don't make it overly easy.

I too am curious what other firms practices are.

 

[zdas04]

At the time of the bid have you done all of the final calculations that underlie the drawings???????????

I don't stamp ANYTHING that I haven't: (1) been paid for; and (2) confirmed and verified that the arithmetic is as right as I can make it and that the drawings match the math. I have sent "typical" drawings along with bid packages to show the kind of work they would be expected to pay for, but my god they are not stamped. Your stamp on a drawing is more than decoration, it is a positive assertion that you are willing to bet your reputation, your experience,your retirement, and even your freedom in some cases that the document you've stamped will perform its design function without killing anyone. I have my stamp locked in a safe and I have to go into another safe to find the combination (I don't open it very often so I forget from one time to the next), and I have never even considered removing it for a bid package.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

 

[JAE]

Stamping is more of a state legal requirement and less so of an in-house company policy. You need to at the least follow your state's legal requirements for what gets stamped and when.

In the 22 states I'm licensed in, most have pretty explicit requirements as to what to seal. Most of the laws seem to me to require anything you "publish" to others in the "public" to be sealed unless you put "not for construction" or some other qualifying statement on it. This would include 8 1/2 x 11 revision sheets - basically anything that could possibly be taken as engineering services and be applied out there in the real world.

zdas04 - if you carefully read the text of most state laws, the seal is not a certification or assertion of quality but rather simply an identifier of the responsible engineer. By you placing the seal/signature on a document, all you are doing is stating that "I" am the responsible engineer.

 

[zdas04]

Exactly, and once you state that "I am the responsible Engineer" you are "responsible". I've done some expert witness stuff lately and I continue to be amazed (sickened?) by the things people will sue over. I only admit to being the "responsible Engineer" when there is a financial motivation to assume that liability.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

 

[kylesito]

We do stamp bid sets but put the "not for construction" stamp on it and then issue a construction set once the contractor has been selected. However, as a general rule, if it leaves our office with a stamp on it, we are at a level of comfort to where it could be built from. So, the effort is on us to make sure our "bid set" represents a design we feel is at a construction level. However, if there are changes between bidding and construction, that is what the "not for construction" or "For Construction" stamp is for.

We haven't had a problem yet with this method.

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

 

[JStephen]

For the most part, plans we get in for bidding have PE seals on them already, but generally, those would have been (or will be) the identical ones used for permitting also.

 

[cvg]

for the most part, public works bid sets are Rev 0 and issued for construction. a Rev C issued for approval may have been submitted previously for agency approval. generally, both sets are required to be stamped. I realize in private / industrial sector, the IFA may not be stamped and if so, should be marked "not for construction" typically bids would be solicited from the IFC set. the only exception is an IFQ set that is sometimes released prior to construction to solicit quotations for equipment.

 

[IRstuff]

in California:
"All civil engineering plans and specifications that are permitted or that are to be released for construction shall bear the signature and seal or stamp of the licensee and the date of signing and sealing or stamping."

The implication is that if a drawing is sealed, then it is essentially a final drawing, so something like "Not for Construction" would be mandatory.

TTFN
faq731-376

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[jgailla]

Same in Florida, IRstuff. The plans submitted for permitting are required to be sealed. Every set of plans goes to the permitters with a not for construction stamp. Sometimes it causes trouble as the reviewers will refuse to review plans that aren't "Final." The troubles were with non-engineers.