Origin of CIVIL engineering.... 7

[HTURKAK]

First time poster long time membership..

Just for curious, what is the reason that the other engineers call us CIVIL ? While we are civil engineers , are they Military ? Why do they call us CIVIL ENGINEERS ?..

May be i should write this post to civil engineering group but traffic is more crowded in this forum..

 

[Agent666]

Comes from civilian engineering I believe, a distinction between that and Military engineering at the time it was coined as a term.

 

[HTURKAK]

I know that, there are civil engineers in army with uniform. In this case should we call them MILITARY CIVIL ENGINEER ?

 

[1503-44]

During the ancient to middle ages, there were only "military engineers", specialising in constructions of fortresses, harbors, roadways, bridges, irrigation and water supply and other exclusively military works. Since that was the experience base to draw from, they were also enlisted to design and build the occasional massive projects designed for non-military use of the times. There were few needs for otherwise massive installations that actually required more than passive knowledge to design and construct. Due to the relatively small demand for nonmilitary projects, especially during the "dark ages", and the prior loss of previously developed knowledge, there was no sustainable source for knowledge to develop along those lines. Other larger structures requiring specialised knowledge, mostly religious in nature, were designed by some very few "architects", after having obtained specific knowledge from many years of apprenticeship. After population growth during late middle ages, there were more demands for nonmilitary installations that could justify development of a field of a more separate nature. Until the end of the middle ages, war was the primary driver of technological advances, and, as one might argue today, still is a major component, however a relatively smaller proportion of the population is required for that purpose and civilians have adapted the military infrastructures for their use. Cities were once inside the fortresses,but gradually moved outside to eventually surround them. With the advent of technology that could defeat any walled fortress, military engineers became the miner's under the walls while the civil engineers concentrated on the remaining infrastructure still of use.

I'd say it happened around the advent of the railroad, Suez Canal, Panama Canal and later when horse and carriage roads had to be adapted for automobiles. The Panama Canal started as a military engineering project, but evolved into a civil design as the infrastructure needed to complete it became more globally encompassing. IMO "The Path Between the Seas" is a must read for all civil engineers.

 

[human909]

As above. Also note seige engines were some of the first machines of war. Engine is latin.

Engine is from the Latin ingenium, which referred to one's ability to create things, one's native genius; it comes from a root meaning 'create; beget' from which we get words like genetic, and is also the source of ingenious and ingenuity (engineer derives from a related word).

 

[HTURKAK]

7.0 (Petroleum),human909 (Structural) thanks for the information that you provided .

But these are history and definition of engineering. Most of the western languages ( English, French, Spanish, Italian languages...) use the term CIVIL , while some languages use different terms..(e.g. German language ;Bauingenieur, Russian ;строительный инженер (construction engineer ...)

In middle ages, definition of engineer was : (a person whose job involves designing and building or running engines ) and the engines were war engines such as catapult.

If we say , mechanical engineer, chemical engineer , .. the name is consistent with the job.

How ever,what about CIVIL ? why the others call us CIVIL ENGINEER ?

 

[1503-44]

Contracted from "Civilian" works, generally meaning anything not specifically for military purposes.

BTW, In Spain a "Civil" engineer is actually a point on the path to becoming an engineer of "Roads, Canals and Ports", or "Caminos, Canales y Puertos".

In the States, branches of armed services have all kinds of engineers specializing in all kinds of military necessities.

I think the term military engineers has come to more or less disuse.

In the UK everyone is an "engineer". Including plumbers, or anyone else that can carry a screwdriver or wrench, open a box and mess up what's inside. If you can carry a hammer, you are a builder.


Reality used to affect the way we thought. Now we somehow believe that what we think affects reality.

 

[dauwerda]

By "us" I am assuming you mean structural engineers.
Although structural engineering is slowly becoming it's own independent discipline - at least in the US (much like mechanical or electrical), structural engineering is still considered a subset of civil engineering.
This link gives a decent brief overview of the history of engineering,

https://www.linkengineering.org/Explore/what-is-engineering/engineering-brief-history.aspx

The initial distinction was that which has been mentioned above, military vs civilian, then in the industrial revolution other more specific disciplines were created such as electrical and mechanical. Structural however was and still is considered as a subdiscipline to civil engineering.

 

[r13]

I consider this is a good answer, Link, as it close to the name given in my native country - an engineer dealing with soil and wood.

 

[drawoh]

HTURKAK,

During the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, western countries started to run military colleges. Military officer cadets were taught engineering. Read up o the American Civil War. Most of the generals understood the building of roads, bridges and fortifications.

If you learned road and bridge building and structural engineering outside of the military, you were a civil engineer.

--
JHG

 

[r13]

WRITTEN BY
J. Garth Watson
Secretary, Institution of Civil Engineers, London, 1967–79.

Civil engineering, the profession of designing and executing structural works that serve the general public. The term was first used in the 18th century to distinguish the newly recognized profession from military engineering, until then preeminent. From earliest times, however, engineers have engaged in peaceful activities, and many of the civil engineering works of ancient and medieval times—such as the Roman public baths, roads, bridges, and aqueducts; the Flemish canals; the Dutch sea defenses; the French Gothic cathedrals; and many other monuments—reveal a history of inventive genius and persistent experimentation.

 

[drawoh]

r13,

A lot of Roman construction probably was intended to find soldiers something to do other than overthrowing and murdering the emperor, and seizing power.

--
JHG

 

[HTURKAK]

Mr. dauwerda ,Mr. r13 ,Mr.drawoh thanks for the documents and explanations.


I understand that if an engineer graduated from military college , and were not practicing military engineering still he was called military engineer. Is that true ?

I looked to web.

https://www.engineeringcivil.com/history

First “Civil Engineer” was an Englishman, John Smeaton in 1761. This date is almost a century before The American Civil War..

Still this is a mystery for me, how civil engineers differentiated from military engineers.

 

[drawoh]

HTURKAK,

The distinctions are not precise and legal. To this day, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers does civilian projects. I don't know about other countries.

Back, earlier, engineers and artists were one and the same person. If you needed a statue of the Virgin Mary holding Baby Jesus, and a machine for ripping the heads off of convicts, you went to the same guy. I cannot think of what the Islamic version of this problem would be.[ ]

--
JHG

 

[1503-44]

The US Army established a corps of "artillerists and engineers" in 1794, which became the Corps of Engineers in 1802, along with the founding of West Point.

There were no shortage of Islamic engineers whom were much concerned with time keeping, aquaducts, irrigation, metalurgy, water power, pumps, wind power, gear boxes, automation and controls, weight and measuring, mechanical drives, (Bank Musa's clamshell bucket), sanitation, dams and millhouse, bridges, drainage, chemical processing and distillation, ventilation and more

According to "Islamic Science and Engineering" D.R. Hill

Reality used to affect the way we thought. Now we somehow believe that what we think affects reality.

 

[r13]

Still this is a mystery for me, how civil engineers differentiated from military engineers.

I believe the distinguish was made by the intended end user of works done each group.

Civil: of, relating to, or involving the general public, their activities, needs, or ways, or civic affairs as distinguished from special (such as military or religious) affairs

 

[gtaw]

And here I though it was because they were simply nice people!

Best regards - Al

 

[r13]

Note that the "U.S. Army Corps of Engineers" is a civilian branch within the Army. Its main function is focused on civil-infrastructures.

 

[1503-44]

Yeah. The civil engineers were much nicer than the military engineers of the day and were excluded from further participation in the design and construction of all military projects thereafter.

Reality used to affect the way we thought. Now we somehow believe that what we think affects reality.

 

[1503-44]

No. Actually not a branch of civilians within the Army. The US Army COE is a permanent arm of the US Army. It does however have many civilian employees.

https://www.usace.army.mil/About/History/Brief-History-of-the-Corps/Introduction/

Reality used to affect the way we thought. Now we somehow believe that what we think affects reality.