Old Engineering References 2

[Ussuri]

I have just purchased a copy of The Civil Engineers Reference Book by John C Trautwine originally published in 1872. It makes for really interesting reading on the history of engineering and still contains information relative today.

There area couple of really good quotes in the preface though, which I wanted to share:

"Comparatively few engineers are good mathematicians, and in the writers opinion, it is fortunate that such is the case; for nature rarely combines high mathematical talent with practical tact"

"[when discussing engineering principles] It is the ignorance of these principles, so easily taught even to children, that constitutes what is popularly called 'The Practical Engineer'; which in the great majority of cases, means simply an ignoramus, who blunders along without knowing any other reason for what he does, than that he has seen it done so before"

And I spent all those years at University learning maths.

 

[arto]

"if you have to use calculus, you're doing something wrong!" ;-)

 

[GregLocock]

If you can't use calculus, you are in trouble!

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Skogsgurra]

You should be able to use calculus - but don't use it for everyday work.

I was teaching a class of fresh engineers some basic control theory this fall. It is amazing how much "unnecessary" calculus is being taught in schools - and how necessary it is when you really need to understand the inner working of many techniques.

Yes, you need it to get a grasp on the fundamentals, but you seldom need it to do your work.

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

 

[zeitghost]

Just as well, really.

I've forgotten it all.

 

[SlideRuleEra]

I have always considered graphical calculus as the best way to appreciate and understand what is happening.

Techniques such as tangent line construction with a mirror, or the chordal methods are great for differential calculus.

The trapezoidal rule and simpson's rule are nice for integral calculus. And of course you can't forget the value of a good compensating polar planimeter!

I know these methods are "historic", at best (other than my planimeter, that still is useful from time to time). But to know how to use them, you have to have insight into the fundamental mathematical concepts.

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[RDK]

One of my professors stated that the reason that we study so much higher math in university is that in order to be very comfortable and capable with math you have to study it far beyond the level at which you are working at.

Also knowledge of higher math is necessary to derive some of the more fundamental formulas that we use routinely.

One of the benefits that I have retained from studying higher order calculus is the ability to imagine what is happening in a mental model of something. I can look at a structure and imagine say the stress and strain relationships and thus quickly get a mental picture of the critical points. Then I can apply simple over design rules of thumb to these locations and quickly access the adequacy of the design in very general terms. Highly useful when building something but not that good for the initial design.

I have however lost the ability to do the mechanics of the calculus to determine what I can imagine intuitively.



Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[DaveVikingPE]

I have these two memories:

1. Ocean Wave Theory. "...and, as you should all remember, is the ellipical cosine or 'cn(x)' and that's why it's called Cnoidal Wave Theory." We didn't talk about wave FORCES once.

2. Finite element analysis, second quarter (we had quarters, not semesters), "...and this is what? Come on, don't you know anything...? [one guyy in back says something] -right, it's a Green's Function..."

On-topic: I really like the older engineering references - with, of course, lots of caveats. Would we consider the AISC ASD 9th edition an older reference? it's four years away from its 20th anniversary. US Steel published a lot of great manuals. I recently saw sone for $10 at a used book store. It was on cable roof structures. I think I'll buy it if it's there next week.

 

[ScottyUK]

Some of the old reference books are incredibly detailed. I picked up a electrical protective relaying manual published by Metropolitan Vickers when my father was a young man. It cost me the price of a couple of pints of beer on a market stall. The detail with which it explains some of the more complex relay systems provides fascinating insight into so many underlying problems which we are now shielded from by the improvements in technology. The engineers of yesteryear must have been immensely talented men. That they worked without any electronic aids such as calculators or computers makes them even greater in my eyes.


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Your body may be a temple. Mine is an amusement park...

 

[zeitghost]

<The engineers of yesteryear must have been immensely talented men. That they worked without any electronic aids such as calculators or computers makes them even greater in my eyes.>

Indeed.

People who designed things like the AR88 and the Racal RA17 without the aid of anything much more than a slide rule & a mechanical calculator (if you were lucky)...

And they couldn't throw a billion or so transistors at a problem to fix it either.

 

[btrueblood]

Rick wrote:
One of the benefits that I have retained from studying higher order calculus is the ability to imagine what is happening in a mental model of something. I can look at a structure and imagine say the stress and strain relationships and thus quickly get a mental picture of the critical points. Then I can apply simple over design rules of thumb to these locations and quickly access the adequacy of the design in very general terms. Highly useful when building something but not that good for the initial design.

Rick, I have a similar mental computer for the differential equations of fluid flow (my schooling was in aeronautical engineering). Still chuckle at a pencil sketch I made of complex flow field in a high-speed aero engine combustor; matched quite well to a CFD run that came off the computer several days later.

 

[chris8410]

ScottyUK,
I am interested in knowing the title of the Metropolitian Vickers publication you mentioned. If known, would you mind sharing the title. I would like to acquire it for my collection. I too greatly appreciate the older engineering publications.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Chris

 

[ScottyUK]

Hello Chris -

It is on my bookshelf at work - I'll post the details when I get back in on Jan 3rd.

Another old book I picked up was (I think) 'Copper for Busbars' published by the Copper Development Association. There are some amazing photographs of marine electrical installations for turbo-electric liners. One was of a circuit breaker rated at 250V 40,000A DC. That isn't the fault-clearance capability, but the continuous rating. I've never seen a DC breaker that big before.


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Your body may be a temple. Mine is an amusement park...

 

[zdas04]

I've got a 1959 edition of Handbook of Natural Gas Engineering by Katz et al that I picked up in the closing of a company library. It is the first reference I pick up for most problems.

The thing that I like best about it is that the author doesn't ask you to take difficult concepts on faith--he shows where the arithmetic comes from, lists assumptions explicitly, and basically says "don't believe me, check it out for yourself".

I also have the current Petroleum Engineering Handbook by Bradley which says "here's the equations, use them like this example". I guess that is ok until I see an errata list that includes correction of typo's in many of the equations that I was expected to take on faith.

I'm just glad that I still know enough arithmetic to follow Katz' derivations.

I guess the difference between Katz and Bradley is that in 1959 engineers were expected to think for themselves and in 2005 they're expected to complete the recipes in a cookbook (really it has gotten to the point where they're expected to fill in a data sheet within a program that they haven't verified the calculations on).

David

 

[zeitghost]

<it has gotten to the point where they're expected to fill in a data sheet within a program that they haven't verified the calculations on>

I suspect that we'll see an increasing number of "oh dears" because of this as time goes on.

Oh dear, my bridge fell down because my coprocessor can't add up properly... etc.

What a cheery thought...

 

[chris8410]

SottyUK,
Thanks for offering to provide the book information. I greatly appreciate it.

I have a copy of the book "Copper for Bus Bars." Very good book. And yes, I do remimber the picture of the 40,000A DC circuit breaker. Very impressive. I wonder if it was tested at the factory before being shipped?

Thanks again Scotty.

Regards,
Chris

 

[Blackcountryman]

I still use "Say's Eletrical Enginbeers Reference Book" a present from my parents in 1966.

The basic theory is still the same but the application data is so dated.

I just looked at some of the product adverts and how few of the compainies are no longer around.

Must be old age

John

 

[ScottyUK]

Chris,

The book was "The Protective Gear Handbook" by M. Kaufmann and published by Pitman. Original print was 1945; mine dates from 1953.

I was slightly wrong when I said it was published by Metropolitan-Vickers: Mr. Kaufmann was Protective Gear Applications Engineer for that company, and also a part-time lecturer at Manchester College of Technology. Hopefully my mistake won't detract from this rather interesting publication.


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Your body might be a temple. Mine is an amusement park...

 

[JimCasey]

I picked up a copy of "Appleton's Cyclopaedia of Mechanics" at an antique store. Two volumes with everyhing that was known about technolgy in 1896. I sometimes just sit and read in amazement.

 

[chris8410]

Scotty,
Greetings. Thank you very much for the book information. I purchased it on line this evening. If I can return the favor, please let me know.

Regards,
Chris