Do you think it is acceptable to send engineers (salary, exempt) to do field service work? There is absolutely no engineering/business work to be done at this site. We are short on field service staff at the moment, and so they immediately turned to the engineering staff to complete this installation. This is long hours away from home doing work that was not in the job description, that is dirty, dangerous, and office engineers are not qualified to complete. There will be no monetary reimbursement (besides applicable mileage/meals). Is this appropriate? Do you find yourselves in this situation? Is it normal? Thanks!
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Office Engineers Doing Field Work 18
- Thread starter jut07
- Start date
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1
- #21
You don't need to be "qualified" or certified, but your hands-on exposure to those activities (even if just observing) helps you to design those systems better with an insight into how they go together or perform as a whole. I think that is the point trying to be made.
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?
MM, I get your point and agree but in the OP he explicitly says "office engineers are not qualified to complete".
If this is true then surely it's not acceptable. If he was just going to observe, see how it's done (and maybe lend a helping hand to the qualified staff) even provide some kind of oversight that's one thing. Doing work he's not qualified to do, and then not getting reimbursment for significant extra hours adds up to a situation I wouldn't be happy with.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
If this is true then surely it's not acceptable. If he was just going to observe, see how it's done (and maybe lend a helping hand to the qualified staff) even provide some kind of oversight that's one thing. Doing work he's not qualified to do, and then not getting reimbursment for significant extra hours adds up to a situation I wouldn't be happy with.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
What point don't you guys understand?
The OP quotes,
"I am simply going out and doing the work that a pipefitter, laborer"
Seriously, since when is that engineering work?
As for assembling what you design or other imaginary qualifications, how many aerospace engineers here that can fly the *^*&% space shuttle, properly install o-ring, or fill the tanks with lox? You can betcha that I don't want to see some geek sitting in the cockpit of the next one I board, thank you very much. Who thinks pipefitting can be properly done by the average office piping engineer?
I'm all for sending them out for a look-see as a training mission, but if you're charging a client for it, he's sure getting ripped off. I damn sure wouldn't pay for it.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
The OP quotes,
"I am simply going out and doing the work that a pipefitter, laborer"
Seriously, since when is that engineering work?
As for assembling what you design or other imaginary qualifications, how many aerospace engineers here that can fly the *^*&% space shuttle, properly install o-ring, or fill the tanks with lox? You can betcha that I don't want to see some geek sitting in the cockpit of the next one I board, thank you very much. Who thinks pipefitting can be properly done by the average office piping engineer?
I'm all for sending them out for a look-see as a training mission, but if you're charging a client for it, he's sure getting ripped off. I damn sure wouldn't pay for it.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
I think the main gripe is doing non-office work as an exempt employee. As an engineer or any other exempt employee, you are made exempt so your expertise or skills can be tapped on an as-needed basis, basically allow the company to use you as they see fit. That's the reality, and the sooner you accept this, the better your day will be. I'm not saying it is right or wrong. I would rather do a few tasks outside my job description and work a few hours "extra" than having to clock every break and lunch period, and file for every time I was late or had an appointment.
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?
KENAT,
I agree with that, but it sounds as if the OP is talking about assembly of parts, not creation of the individual components. If you design an assembly, but cannot assemble (not talking about manufacturing) it yourself then, yes, you are no good. I've seen many assemblies created on CAD that, when the engineer was asked to go to the manufacturing floor, had no idea how to put together his own assembly.
V
I agree with that, but it sounds as if the OP is talking about assembly of parts, not creation of the individual components. If you design an assembly, but cannot assemble (not talking about manufacturing) it yourself then, yes, you are no good. I've seen many assemblies created on CAD that, when the engineer was asked to go to the manufacturing floor, had no idea how to put together his own assembly.
V
VC66, you can call up perfectly valid assembly processes that you don't necesserily know how to do yourself.
If nothing else for some of the small stuff I deal with here, my fat fingers make some of it a bit fiddly. The small statured, small fingered, assembly staff are somewhat better.
Your take on it was different to mine. The things that stood out to me were the safety/qualification issue; the fact that there is alternate field support staff who could be paid overtime but the company refuses and would rather use engineers who don't get similar compensation for non core hours etc; that it wasn't in the job description and that it's by no means the first time it's happened recently.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
If nothing else for some of the small stuff I deal with here, my fat fingers make some of it a bit fiddly. The small statured, small fingered, assembly staff are somewhat better.
Your take on it was different to mine. The things that stood out to me were the safety/qualification issue; the fact that there is alternate field support staff who could be paid overtime but the company refuses and would rather use engineers who don't get similar compensation for non core hours etc; that it wasn't in the job description and that it's by no means the first time it's happened recently.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
Big Inch, (and others so inclined)
I am not being rediculous. I am Vice President of Engineering for a heavy construion firm dating to 1843. We design and build all manner of temporary and permenant work. I have a graduate degree in soil mechanics and licences in two states. I am on the boards of two industry associations. How did I get started? Cleaning sewers with a pail and a shovel for $8 an hour. Eventually I worked my way into other assignments, learned to survey and finished engineering.When I got out of school I ran work as an engineer/ asst.super. Despite everything else I have done and learned, my most valuable experiences are out in the field. I do associate trades men with engineers. If I am unsure how to support something or detail a joint, I often will dicusses it with one of our riggers or supers. They have uncanny insight as to how systems and strucures work. Often more so than some engineers.
For years I have heard engineers complain about lack of recognition and compensation. Yet as some one who is on many sides of the issue, I do submit the quality of design has significantly degraded over the years, to the point where as the contractor, we are requested to verify the integrity of the contract designs. Owners feel that designers are more nebulous in their details. This leads to claims by contractors, which in turn leads to further obfiscation of the design. The major reason for this is that there is a deep and wide gulf between engineering and actualization (be it manufacturing or construction) of that design.
I recently hired a design engineer who is an experienced designer. Shortly after starting he was on a barge with a pile driving crew. He loved it.
Jut07
Working in the field you will see how designs are built. You may be shocked. You will learn how to interact with the people who build your designs. You will learn how to interact with clients. There is much to be learned about engineering that has little to do with the engineering you learned in school. Do you think the guy that owns your company got to where he was simply because he was good at analysis? I doubt it. Life has as many oppertunities as you choose to create.
All
Thank you for reading this far. Good night.
I am not being rediculous. I am Vice President of Engineering for a heavy construion firm dating to 1843. We design and build all manner of temporary and permenant work. I have a graduate degree in soil mechanics and licences in two states. I am on the boards of two industry associations. How did I get started? Cleaning sewers with a pail and a shovel for $8 an hour. Eventually I worked my way into other assignments, learned to survey and finished engineering.When I got out of school I ran work as an engineer/ asst.super. Despite everything else I have done and learned, my most valuable experiences are out in the field. I do associate trades men with engineers. If I am unsure how to support something or detail a joint, I often will dicusses it with one of our riggers or supers. They have uncanny insight as to how systems and strucures work. Often more so than some engineers.
For years I have heard engineers complain about lack of recognition and compensation. Yet as some one who is on many sides of the issue, I do submit the quality of design has significantly degraded over the years, to the point where as the contractor, we are requested to verify the integrity of the contract designs. Owners feel that designers are more nebulous in their details. This leads to claims by contractors, which in turn leads to further obfiscation of the design. The major reason for this is that there is a deep and wide gulf between engineering and actualization (be it manufacturing or construction) of that design.
I recently hired a design engineer who is an experienced designer. Shortly after starting he was on a barge with a pile driving crew. He loved it.
Jut07
Working in the field you will see how designs are built. You may be shocked. You will learn how to interact with the people who build your designs. You will learn how to interact with clients. There is much to be learned about engineering that has little to do with the engineering you learned in school. Do you think the guy that owns your company got to where he was simply because he was good at analysis? I doubt it. Life has as many oppertunities as you choose to create.
All
Thank you for reading this far. Good night.
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
Hmm. " .... But there is nothing for me to learn on this trip. I don't even deal with this product. "
That smells like someone upstairs thinks you are the obvious candidate to do the next generation of said product, once you understand why it's having problems in the field.
Opportunity is knocking. Answer the door.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
That smells like someone upstairs thinks you are the obvious candidate to do the next generation of said product, once you understand why it's having problems in the field.
Opportunity is knocking. Answer the door.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Well, I'm so inspired now I think I'll volunteer to go fix one of our tools in the field that's playing up.
Never mind that I'm not qualified to run the tool and am only familiar with the mechanical aspects on one minor sub assembly which only might be causing the problem.
At worst I can cause a few $ tens of thousand damage to our tool, take it off line for weeks for repair causing the customer $millions in back log and destroy a few $thousand of their product in the process, which of course may discourage them from buying another tool from us in the process.
Clearly I've been wrong to suggest they send somone from system test/integration that spends all their time working on the tools and is familiar with not just the mechanical aspects of this one sub assembly but also knows how to operate the tool, teach the robot, interrogate the software, is familiar with clean room protocol...
Shame on me, it will be well worth my missing important deadlines on my in office projects, the price of the plane ticket halfway across the world, accomodation, loosing a weekend with my family, having to pay for the ticket and accomodation on my credit card...
Just so I can see if a couple of screws are too loose/tight and a couple of valves are open properly, assuming I can bring the tool off line in the first place, and more doubtfully bring it back on line and do the required testing to verify correct performance.
I'm off to pack.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
Never mind that I'm not qualified to run the tool and am only familiar with the mechanical aspects on one minor sub assembly which only might be causing the problem.
At worst I can cause a few $ tens of thousand damage to our tool, take it off line for weeks for repair causing the customer $millions in back log and destroy a few $thousand of their product in the process, which of course may discourage them from buying another tool from us in the process.
Clearly I've been wrong to suggest they send somone from system test/integration that spends all their time working on the tools and is familiar with not just the mechanical aspects of this one sub assembly but also knows how to operate the tool, teach the robot, interrogate the software, is familiar with clean room protocol...
Shame on me, it will be well worth my missing important deadlines on my in office projects, the price of the plane ticket halfway across the world, accomodation, loosing a weekend with my family, having to pay for the ticket and accomodation on my credit card...
Just so I can see if a couple of screws are too loose/tight and a couple of valves are open properly, assuming I can bring the tool off line in the first place, and more doubtfully bring it back on line and do the required testing to verify correct performance.
I'm off to pack.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
But having done all that, even if it goes horribly wrong, your next tool design will be better. Maybe even impossible for you to screw up...
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Well apart from my company probably being bankrupt (or at least this division assuming customer requires compensation) and me having been fired/layed off yeah great.
I'm not nocking field/practical experience, it is highly valuable, probably undervalued and should arguably be emphasized more in training new engineers etc. However I still don't see that is the only, or even major, issue in the OP.
jut07, at the end of the day you can just accept it & learn what you can, or vote with your feet at the first opportunity.
I'm still concerned by the 'dangerous... not qualified' in your OP but several posters with what I believe to be more experience than I at least some of whom I know to have given good advice before, disagree.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
I'm not nocking field/practical experience, it is highly valuable, probably undervalued and should arguably be emphasized more in training new engineers etc. However I still don't see that is the only, or even major, issue in the OP.
jut07, at the end of the day you can just accept it & learn what you can, or vote with your feet at the first opportunity.
I'm still concerned by the 'dangerous... not qualified' in your OP but several posters with what I believe to be more experience than I at least some of whom I know to have given good advice before, disagree.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
DRC1,
I wasn't doubting your very impressive qualifications. I just don't think you thought out your answer to this particular question very well. Perhaps you were just identifying too much with the few similarities this question had to your own background and experience and that clouded the issues. Placing an engineer in the field to do ENGINEERING work is of course the best way for an engineer to get the most practical experience he can ever get, but to send them out (not as a learning experience) to do field labor (as the OP has stated) is not a proper use of resources. If you are indeed advocating that practice, company owner, board director, CEO, manager, or not, I think there's still just a little bit you can learn. I suggest that you should work the month of January as a field laborer (just to make it interesting, at field labor rates), then go back to your office and see what went wrong with your company while you were away.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
I wasn't doubting your very impressive qualifications. I just don't think you thought out your answer to this particular question very well. Perhaps you were just identifying too much with the few similarities this question had to your own background and experience and that clouded the issues. Placing an engineer in the field to do ENGINEERING work is of course the best way for an engineer to get the most practical experience he can ever get, but to send them out (not as a learning experience) to do field labor (as the OP has stated) is not a proper use of resources. If you are indeed advocating that practice, company owner, board director, CEO, manager, or not, I think there's still just a little bit you can learn. I suggest that you should work the month of January as a field laborer (just to make it interesting, at field labor rates), then go back to your office and see what went wrong with your company while you were away.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
- Thread starter
- #35
Thanks again for all the responses. I enjoyed reading them, even the ones I didn't agree with.
Also, it turned out to be not quite as dangerous (air pollution) or long as advertised. That was a pleasant suprise. Unfortunately, the amount of engineering experience I got was zero. There was a lot of "get this, push here, wrench that, don't think just do." That was not as pleasant.
As for building things, I used to work in industrial construction. I know how things go together (not to say there's never anything new). I also used to be in organizations in college that required a lot of machining, fabrication and assembly. Again, I'm not underestimating the value of learning a new product. Unfortunately (and I forgot this detail earlier) this product will be discontinued in the very near future.
Back to my original question, how many of you actually go on "mind-numbing" service calls? Is it normal and ethical to bypass non-exempt employees and ask exempt employees to step up and donate a ton of hours? I'm not really looking for supporting arguements either way, just a poll.
DRC1,
You do have impressive qualifications. I got started by shoveling manure out of barns at $5/hr. Then I graduated to farm equipment (which was cool to work on) and combined with my billions of hours with my erector set and interest in math and science, I pursued engineering. I wouldn't pick any other career path. It sounds like I'm taking a similar path that you took and it seemed to have worked out well for you.
I've seen quite a few designs by engineer's that I don't think can tie their own shoes. The designs are obviously flawed and maybe field work (of any kind) should be mandatory. I don't know. I do know, however, that I've proven myself as a no-bs engineer who can look at how things "actually" work. Unfortunately at the same time, I've proven myself as a good wrench turner. Is it fair to make me go on service calls because of that? Do you go on service calls?
Also, it turned out to be not quite as dangerous (air pollution) or long as advertised. That was a pleasant suprise. Unfortunately, the amount of engineering experience I got was zero. There was a lot of "get this, push here, wrench that, don't think just do." That was not as pleasant.
As for building things, I used to work in industrial construction. I know how things go together (not to say there's never anything new). I also used to be in organizations in college that required a lot of machining, fabrication and assembly. Again, I'm not underestimating the value of learning a new product. Unfortunately (and I forgot this detail earlier) this product will be discontinued in the very near future.
Back to my original question, how many of you actually go on "mind-numbing" service calls? Is it normal and ethical to bypass non-exempt employees and ask exempt employees to step up and donate a ton of hours? I'm not really looking for supporting arguements either way, just a poll.
DRC1,
You do have impressive qualifications. I got started by shoveling manure out of barns at $5/hr. Then I graduated to farm equipment (which was cool to work on) and combined with my billions of hours with my erector set and interest in math and science, I pursued engineering. I wouldn't pick any other career path. It sounds like I'm taking a similar path that you took and it seemed to have worked out well for you.
I've seen quite a few designs by engineer's that I don't think can tie their own shoes. The designs are obviously flawed and maybe field work (of any kind) should be mandatory. I don't know. I do know, however, that I've proven myself as a no-bs engineer who can look at how things "actually" work. Unfortunately at the same time, I've proven myself as a good wrench turner. Is it fair to make me go on service calls because of that? Do you go on service calls?
My last job, after the customer goes around in circles with the Service Department, and to prevent losing that customer, exempt engineering staff were sent on-site. This was in the transportation industry where our equipment was used. There is nothing more frustrating than having to travel out of State, crawl under a city bus parked in the blazing heat in Phoenix, AZ or lay in cold slush in Montreal, CA only to find that the equipment was improperly grounded of to find a cable loose, knowing full well this is one of the first areas covered over the phone.
But even these types of visits can be productive if you make the effort. I got to meet face-to-face with people I had only communicated with via email or phone. I got to see their operation, how organized (or not) they were, what their work habits were like. Its a business culture thing, one more item to file away in your brain for later.
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?
Like I said, I've been threatend with it but not gone.
Some of the other Engineers who actually know something usefull get sent several times a year.
However, in most of those cases it's because it's a special or something so their support is needed. However, some of it's because some of our field support aint all that.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
Some of the other Engineers who actually know something usefull get sent several times a year.
However, in most of those cases it's because it's a special or something so their support is needed. However, some of it's because some of our field support aint all that.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
SomptingGuy
Automotive
I get to visit and support people who are clearly not qualified to use the software I write. Does that count?
- Steve
- Steve
SomptingGuy
Automotive
C'mon. I find myself explaining fundamentals to "experts" all the time. Largely by reading from the manual sections that I have written.
- Steve
- Steve
- Status
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