Number of CNC axis's 2

[SorryOciffer]

What does it mean when a CNC machine has 2,3,4,5 axis's? I have some machining work to be done and as I look around for a vendor to do it I see this alot....

Also, I see "live tool" alot, does this mean that the machine can select the bits as it is needed instead of the operator having to change them out?

Thanks,
Bryan

 

[SorryOciffer]

Part II

What should O look for in a vendor to do this work, Most parts will be complex shaped aluminum and small steel parts.

Thanks,
Bryan

 

[ajack1]

As I understand it 3 axis is right to left, front to back and up and down. With this you can do anything that has a vertical face or lay open, namely no undercuts, unless of course you tip the job.

The forth axis is a rotation of the X-axis side to side and the fifth axis is a rotation of the Y-axis front to back.

I believe a “live tool” means the machine rotates the head rather than it being a manual operation as it is on a turret mill.

 

[jpete]

2 axis=Basic lathe. "X" and "Z" only
3 axis=Basic mill. "X","Y", and "Z"
4th axis would be an indexing head
5th axis would be an indexing head that can pivot up/down.

There are multi-axis mills that the spindle can twist and turn in several directions. Used in things like CNC porting of cylinder heads.

Live tools on a lathe means a mill/drill head can be used to drill/tap bolt hole circles in the OD or face. Or mill simple(or not so simple) shapes on a lathe. I use a Mazak 30MS to make all kinds of strange shapes, squares, triangles, etc.

 

[aamoroso]

An axis is a programmable motion of the machine. A drill press for instance could be considered a 1 axis machine because the operator can move the tool on one Axis only, up and down.

Typical milling machines are 3 axis, the tool has up and down movement, the table can move the part side to side and back and forh.

Some CNC Machining Centers with more than 3 axis can have a roatary as stated by jpete, but some will have an additonal movement of the tool axis or table other than a traditional rotary indexing.

Live Tools can eliminate extra operations for your parts, for instance a shaft with a hole thru the side. This part can be turned in a lathe and then normally require a secondary operartion to add the hole on the side via a different machine. With live tooling it is all complete in one operation.

Complex shape is pretty vague, more info would be helpful in pointing you in the right direction. Long twisted curved surfaces generally require more than 3 axis machining. A picture or comparison to something would be nice.





Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. And scratch where it itches.

 

[SorryOciffer]

Well, I wish I had a pick I could put up. I want to have a firearm reciever 3D laser scanned and put into a CNC readable file. It is for a rifle who's patent expired a couple of years ago. It is made of cast alluminum and has a deep internal cavity and shapes that must be be exact.

There would be other parts that would need to be machined as well but not as complex.

If I can find a pick of a bare reciever I will post it for comments. Right now, I guess you could say I am doing a feasibility study or sorts, trying to see if I can have it made at a price = or lesser than current pricing.

 

[aamoroso]

Sounds like it could be accomplished just fine on a 3 axis. I would send out plenty of RFQ's.

As for a CNC Readable file, you are probably going to be asked for a dimensioned drawing from most places. I would look for small job shops that take pride in handling the unusual projects, they may be more inclined to working directly with you on the project. Larger more high volume shops may just say send us a drawing we will get you the part made for $X.

It may be in your interest to seek help from an engineer or toolmaker to help get this accomplished. This may save you money in the end, what some people consider "exact" or "complex" may be wide open and simple to those in the trade. The more complex and exact you require for the part the more it will cost you, an mech designer or toolmaker could easily help you determine the requirements for the part based on form - fit - function. These are the three big considerations in designing a cost effective product or part.

Good luck with your project it sounds like it will be fun and exciting.

Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. And scratch where it itches.

 

[SorryOciffer]

Thanks for the input!

Where do I go to send out RFQs? I am all new to this stuff but not to the firearms area. How do I find good small shops that are reputable? I have found plenty of bigger shops on-line. Where would I have a drawing of the part made?
As one part would be considered the actual firearm it would have to be sent through a dealer whereever it went and I want to lessen the amount of times it changes hands. I don't o'l Joe Bob at the corner shop to be resposible for something that would cost a great amount ot replace....

You're right though, my idea of complex may be quite simple to many here. Not being in this field and looking at what would have to be made makes my head hurt thinking about it.

Is there a place online that such smaller shops advertise on?

 

[aamoroso]

Probably a good place to start is your local phone book. Machine Shops, the smaller guys will be listed there. RFQs (request for quotes) can usually be faxed, mailed, phone conversation. If you can get someone on the phone that is the best method, explain your situation and what you are looking to accomplish, if they say oh well we aren't that type of machine shop ask them for local alternatives or who in the area they would go to for that, odds are they will know and suggest someone they do or have done business with. The manufacturing community is pretty tight and you see that the larger places that will steer clear of this sort of project know alot of the smaller companies very well because they job out stuff to smaller more specialized shops when necessary. Everyone is usually familiar with everyone on a localized level so advice from rejections is the best way to learn as you go. Don't be afraid to approach machines shops and try to get a walkin appointment by saying you interested in getting a quote on a project. The people you are looking to talk to are interested in quoting projects because they are trying to find work. Someone will usually come and spend at least a few minutes with you to tell you no we dont that sort of thing or they will invite you and say let's talk. Just make sure they feel you are a potential source of income, perhaps there is potential for more future work or recomendations to others. If you say I am looking for one of these and I want to be involved in the project till its done and then you will never see me agian, they will pretty much say not interested. If you say, I or my family or a group of business aquaintences have a bunch of good ideas and we are looking for someone to get comfortable with in a working relationship, then you have their attention. This could be a long term business arrangement or at the potential of one exists.

You may be surprised to the value of items that probably pass through olJoe Bobs hands everyday. Most small places that will get involved in such projects take great pride in specialized work, it is usually their lively hood.

As for getting a drawing, there are many options, alot of designers freelance and will do cad work for an hourly rate. Go to the machine shops first, some may offer the service. Scour the internet, freelance designers, mech designers through google should turn up some stuff. You may catch someone just starting out that would do it for a low fee just to be able to get the work on the resume.

You may want to tinker around at Inventor Base . There are probably more people in your situation there that can help you get started. You may find stories similar to yours and gain knowledge from others experience.

Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. And scratch where it itches.

 

[ajack1]

Will you need a drawing? Maybe it can just be done from digitising the part or a laser scan, it could be that a machine shop can do this as a package, rather than have two third parties working for you and exchanges of data, never a good thing between different systems. Talk to them before you outlay money that may be wasted.

As others have said small shops tend to specialise and will probably offer a better tailored service, ask around and good luck.

 

[aamoroso]

Sorryofficer, you may want to start a new thread for this, Number of CNC Axis was the topic, now getting something made would be more appropriate for the info you seek.

Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. And scratch where it itches.

 

[moldcore]

It sound like you may need an investment casting foundry if you want to produce these in quantity. A part with deep internal cavities and fine details are difficult and expensive to machine and investment castings are commonly used in the firearm industry to accomplish this. I have made a few investment casting molds of gun receivers and slides for foundries. But you need to work with a foundry if this is the way you want to go.

 

[CMfgE1]

You will definetely need a dimesional drawing (machining drawing). Complete with tolerances and of course dimensions.
I dont think youll find too many shops that will attempt this without clear definition. Mostly for liability reasons. Altough you can have a company "reverse engineer" the part and create the drawings for you. Just depends on your capital and how serious you are about making the part or parts. Let us know how you made out and where your located. Might be able to help with people in your area.


Good Luck

Quote: "Its not what you know, its who you know" - anybody trying to find a decent job

 

[ajack1]

CMfgE1, that simply is not true.

 

[aamoroso]

I have worked in job shops in the past where people would walk in with money and ideas and next thing you know, we were creating the dimensional drawings.

Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. And scratch where it itches.

 

[icrman]

There are special probes that a standard CNC machine can use and create a program with. I saw it done over 8 years ago at a Machine tool expo. You do not need any dimensions
just let them copy what ya got.

And more than likely to productively make that sorta part, a 4 axis machining center would do.

It will basicly spin the part around so all sides can be machined. You could locate ie hold the part at the area where the barrel would be attached, and that would be the last area to be machined. It would be a very simple job with the correct machine.

 

[ajack1]

SorryOciffer, try a few companies like the link below. I would say I have not dealt with this particular company and would not build business for companies I have but it gives a good idea of what is available, any search engine will throw up many that will suit your needs better.

People that are saying you HAVE to have a fully dimensioned set of drawings are living in the past; use technology as a friend not an enemy, good luck.

http://www.crdm.co.uk/index.htm

 

[SorryOciffer]

Thanks for the input guys! I love this place. I found some places that can reverse engineer it by taking 3d Laser scans and creating a cad file that I can send out for bids. Just gotta see what that will cost... Also looking into MFGquote.com where I can send out for mult RFQs.

You guys rock.

SorryOciffer